1851 is getting ugly

[Ed C.]

My 1851 Navy (Pietta) has been a pretty accurate pistol but lately the groups have been starting to open up so I took it out and bench tested it today. It was terrible! No grouping at all. Bullets going everywhere. Left and right. All low. Off hand shooting strangely was a little better but not like it used to shoot. Same powder, load, RB's and wads. I checked the endshake when I got home. .007" just like it has always been so I don't think there is a wedge issue. Barrel looks ok to me. I don't know what it is. I'd hate to retire it as a shooter. Any ideas?

 

[necchi]

Maybe try a new nipple set?

 

[1stnamebassist]

Lead in the barrel or forcing cone?

 

[Ed C.]

Maybe try a new nipple set?

You know I recently changed from TOTW nipples to slix. I might just put the TOTW back on and try it. Slix work fine on my other two revolvers but who knows?

 

[Ed C.]

Lead in the barrel or forcing cone?

Looks ok, but that is possible. Makes sense.

 

[M. De Land]

My 1851 Navy (Pietta) has been a pretty accurate pistol but lately the groups have been starting to open up so I took it out and bench tested it today. It was terrible! No grouping at all. Bullets going everywhere. Left and right. All low. Off hand shooting strangely was a little better but not like it used to shoot. Same powder, load, RB's and wads. I checked the endshake when I got home. .007" just like it has always been so I don't think there is a wedge issue. Barrel looks ok to me. I don't know what it is. I'd hate to retire it as a shooter. Any ideas?

Perhaps an eye problem ? Might check and see if the arbor is loose or the bolt spring is weak from the mechanical aspect.

 

[Ed C.]

Perhaps an eye problem ? Might check and see if the arbor is loose or the bolt spring is weak from the mechanical aspect.

I just spent this morning with it. Arbor is good and timing and lock up are excellent. Barrel looked good but I cleaned it anyway with Hoppe's #9 and copper mesh wrapped around a brush followed by a scotch pad polishing. I just don't know. The thing is that gun has gotten more work and TLC than any other one and was dead on POA. I can pick the day it started going bad. It shot very good early on and then starting throwing fliers. I figured I was getting tired or maybe the barrel was fouling. But then this last time I shot the first cylinder off a rest at 25 yards. Then a cylinder offhand. Then gave up. Here is what it looked like. Seems like one round in the first set did not even make the paper. Maybe resting in closet it will get well? We'll see.

 

[M. De Land]

I just spent this morning with it. Arbor is good and timing and lock up are excellent. Barrel looked good but I cleaned it anyway with Hoppe's #9 and copper mesh wrapped around a brush followed by a scotch pad polishing. I just don't know. The thing is that gun has gotten more work and TLC than any other one and was dead on POA. I can pick the day it started going bad. It shot very good early on and then starting throwing fliers. I figured I was getting tired or maybe the barrel was fouling. But then this last time I shot the first cylinder off a rest at 25 yards. Then a cylinder offhand. Then gave up. Here is what it looked like. Seems like one round in the first set did not even make the paper. Maybe resting in closet it will get well? We'll see.

Might check and see if the barrel crown got dinged ! I'm scratching my head as well.
Might check the ball diameter with calipers too.
Try it with out the wad and some grease over the ball.

 

[Ed C.]

Might check and see if the barrel crown got dinged ! I'm scratching my head as well.

Great minds think alike! I did take a .490 RB wrapped in some 320 grit and did a little work there although it looked basically ok.

 

[M. De Land]

Great minds think alike! I did take a .490 RB wrapped in some 320 grit and did a little work there although it looked basically ok.

You might want to get a friend you know to be a good hand gun shot to try a group or two to verify your findings !

 

[45D]

My 1851 Navy (Pietta) has been a pretty accurate pistol but lately the groups have been starting to open up so I took it out and bench tested it today. It was terrible! No grouping at all. Bullets going everywhere. Left and right. All low. Off hand shooting strangely was a little better but not like it used to shoot. Same powder, load, RB's and wads. I checked the endshake when I got home. .007" just like it has always been so I don't think there is a wedge issue. Barrel looks ok to me. I don't know what it is. I'd hate to retire it as a shooter. Any ideas?

Check and see if the rear of the wedge slot in the arbor is on the same plane as the slot in the barrel. It needs to be further back . . . otherwise, the wedge isn't doing anything.

Mike

 

[Ed C.]

Check and see if the rear of the wedge slot in the arbor is on the same plane as the slot in the barrel. It needs to be further back . . . otherwise, the wedge isn't doing anything.

Mike

Ok, just checked. I'm good on the back side. The arbor slot sits well back from the frame slot. Good on the front also with the arbor slot extending into past the plane of the frame slot with the wedge in tight. In other words, the arbor could probably be about .100" shorter before the wedge would hit the forward edge of the frame if the cylinder were not in place. I don't know. I have to take that gun out to the range again. Maybe somehow it was me. I'm not an expert shot, but I usually can depend on shooting reasonably well, especially off of a rest.

 

[M. De Land]

Ok, just checked. I'm good on the back side. The arbor slot sits well back from the frame slot. Good on the front also with the arbor slot extending into past the plane of the frame slot with the wedge in tight. In other words, the arbor could probably be about .100" shorter before the wedge would hit the forward edge of the frame if the cylinder were not in place. I don't know. I have to take that gun out to the range again. Maybe somehow it was me. I'm not an expert shot, but I usually can depend on shooting reasonably well, especially off of a rest.

I'm out of ideas for you to try but sure am interested in what you find as cause . I was wondering if you changed anything in your rest technique. Some like to rest their wrists on the sand bag and not let the gun touch anything but I have done my best hand gun rest shooting by pressing the gun into the sand bag at the loading lever and frame junction. It does splatter grease and fouling on the leather bag (if over ball lubing) but it gives me the best groups.
The mess on the bag is only because I forget to bring and cover it with a patch of loose raw hide.

 

[Stykbow]

Before I started messing with the gun I’d check how I was shooting with another “known” pistol. It might be you…

 

[nick_1]

the most important thing is to rest the pistol properly. absolute solid rest should tell you something.

 

[Ed C.]

I'm out of ideas for you to try but sure am interested in what you find as cause . I was wondering if you changed anything in your rest technique. Some like to rest their wrists on the sand bag and not let the gun touch anything but I have done my best hand gun rest shooting by pressing the gun into the sand bag at the loading lever and frame junction. It does splatter grease and fouling on the leather bag (if over ball lubing) but it gives me the best groups.
The mess on the bag is only because I forget to bring and cover it with a patch of loose raw hide.

I very rarely shoot from a rest....feels awkward to me with a pistol. I usually do just as good or better doing 2 hand standing shooting. I shot off of the padded V piece of wood I use for the Hawken sighting in.. My barrel is now squeaky clean and I did do a polishing on the muzzle so maybe that will make a difference. FYI I'm using 22 grains of FFFg, a 1/8" durofelt wad soaked in 50/50 beeswax/olive oil and Hornaday .454 RB.

 

[nick_1]

you need a rest that supports your whole hand , your wrists and the gun. I use my shooting bag. its all powder burned but it works.. Think of it like breaking out the laser level on the job site to verify all your heights are correct.

 

[Ed C.]

Before I started messing with the gun I’d check how I was shooting with another “known” pistol. It might be you…

Good idea. I was planning on bringing my very accurate 1858 Remington along to the range to compare. I'm also waiting on a stainless 1858 target model to arrive which will also need to be cleaned and sighted in. Not looking forward to coming home to cleaning 3 BP revolvers in one day. There is nothing more that I know to check or change on that gun. If it does not shoot well on the next session all I can do is bring it to a competent BP gunsmith for his evaluation or just retire it as a gun haunted by demons.

 

[nick_1]

I had a terrible day at one of the Biathlons last winter . got home benched it and it was not the pistol. finally I figured out that the huge arthritis lump on my thumb was aggravated causing me to flinch. I taped some packing bubble wrap to my thumb and mostly solved the issue. the benching process was a necessary part of the troubleshooting.

 

[Ponderosaman]

Have you looked at the position of the cylinder compared to the forcing cone maybe enough lead is being scraped off the ball to keep it from properly contacting the rifling in the barrel.