1858 Loads

[45man]

I agree, you can't get enough of any powder in a revolver to harm it. The cylinder only holds so much so a ball or conical will fit. Accuracy is another thing and depends on the twist rate. You don't want to spin a ball too fast. For instance, my ROA has a 1 in 16 rate and 20 gr with filler shoots best.
Powder volume is actually the weight in grains of one granulation of powder and will vary as you change from ffg, fffg, ffffg, Pyrodex or 777. But volume is how much space you use in the chamber so all are thrown by volume no matter what the actual powder weight is. Be aware that Pyrodex and 777 weigh a LOT less then BP so it is not safe to go by weight.
I experimented with volume versus weight by weighing BP to 1/10 gr once and results were that using a measure was much more accurate then weighed charges. It was hard to wrap my head around but it proved true.

 

[smoothshooter]

That's my understanding. Don't know why Pietta "Manual" gives such different numbers unless:
misprint
translation goof up
lawyers
something else
maybe BP is hotter in Italy (sarc)

I don’t think very many of the Italian replica makers management or engineers are actually black powder shooters.

 

[TNGhost]

I agree, you can't get enough of any powder in a revolver to harm it. The cylinder only holds so much so a ball or conical will fit. Accuracy is another thing and depends on the twist rate. You don't want to spin a ball too fast. For instance, my ROA has a 1 in 16 rate and 20 gr with filler shoots best.
Powder volume is actually the weight in grains of one granulation of powder and will vary as you change from ffg, fffg, ffffg, Pyrodex or 777. But volume is how much space you use in the chamber so all are thrown by volume no matter what the actual powder weight is. Be aware that Pyrodex and 777 weigh a LOT less then BP so it is not safe to go by weight.
I experimented with volume versus weight by weighing BP to 1/10 gr once and results were that using a measure was much more accurate then weighed charges. It was hard to wrap my head around but it proved true.

Any black powder or black powder specific substitute...

 

[maillemaker]

I have 2 steel 1858 Remingtons -- both .44 -- both Pietta's. The "Owner's Manual" that came with them says use a load of FFFG 12-15 Grains (Weight? Volume? - manual does not say). I also have a paper cartridge kit (readily available) that includes a powder measure that delivers 44 Grains by volume. Internet research says 20-30 grains with 25 grains as likely the best for accuracy.....
So to say a bit confused is an understatement

Grains is a unit of weight:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_(unit)

There are 7000 grains in 1 pound. Thus one grain is 1/7000th of a pound.

As with smokeless powder, you can dispense black powder volumetrically with great precision if you have good equipment and use it consistently. But the gold standard is with a precision scale, and you should always check and confirm your volumetric drops by scale.

Most reproduction .44 revolvers, like the 1860 Army or the Remington New Model Army will develop maximum accuracy around 18-20 grains of black powder. Big guns like the Walker may have an accuracy sweet spot around 45 grains of powder.

It depends on what kind of shooting you want to do. If you are looking for maximum precision then you will probably want to use reduced loads. If you are looking for maximum power then you will want "full house" loads. If you are looking for historical load data you'll be looking at somewhere in between.

 

[Deavertex]

That's my understanding. Don't know why Pietta "Manual" gives such different numbers unless:
misprint
translation goof up
lawyers
something else
maybe BP is hotter in Italy (sarc)

It may just be a holdover from a .36 Navy manual. That sounds like a Navy charge to me -- the totally inexperienced revolver shooter.

 

[Mike in FL]

I have 2 steel 1858 Remingtons -- both .44 -- both Pietta's. The "Owner's Manual" that came with them says use a load of FFFG 12-15 Grains (Weight? Volume? - manual does not say). I also have a paper cartridge kit (readily available) that includes a powder measure that delivers 44 Grains by volume. Internet research says 20-30 grains with 25 grains as likely the best for accuracy.....
So to say a bit confused is an understatement

I don't use my Pietta for anything but target and to take along on outings where I might want to take small game so I want the best accuracy, which is 18 grains of 3F and a roundball. A small bag carries cleaning and reloading stuff. Because I'm weird, I swab the bore after a few shots.

 

[45man]

Any black powder or black powder specific substitute...

I use only BP in my revolver, the powder I might be concerned with is 777 but never tried it because it does not like any compression. But since it is used by volume, I suppose you can't get too much in to be a problem.

 

[45man]

In my ROA I stuff in 41 gr of Swiss FFFG for deer hunting up close but accuracy at 50 yards is a pipe dream. It would make no sense wanting more velocity because Ruger used .45 Colt barrels. I sure wish the twist was slower.

 

[justinoldguy]

I use only BP in my revolver, the powder I might be concerned with is 777 but never tried it because it does not like any compression. But since it is used by volume, I suppose you can't get too much in to be a problem.

Hodgdon 777 is fine in revolvers, and you can compress it all you like. The only concern in compressing 777 is when used for Metallic Black Powder Cartridge reloading. The myth that you cannot compress 777 in a cap and ball revolver just will not go away. I heard of it way back when 777 first came out, and thus I contacted the manufacturer directly. Their written response was to "load it as you would any other black or substitute powder". Another myth attached to 777 is that you need to reduce loads by 15%. That is only necessary to replicate the performance of Goex and similar powders, it has nothing to do with safety. Hodgdon 777 is hotter than all other commercially available powders, but delivers superior ballistic performance without endangering either shooter or the gun. I currently have 9 lbs. of 777 left. When it is gone, I will not replace it, not due to safety concerns, but as it is $40+ per/lb. in my area, whereas I can get Pyro P for $23.99. Heck, even Swiss with Hazmat and shipping costs less than 777.

 

[TNGhost]

I use only BP in my revolver, the powder I might be concerned with is 777 but never tried it because it does not like any compression. But since it is used by volume, I suppose you can't get too much in to be a problem.

Just threw that out there because there are a lot of less than knowledgeable people who read this forum looking for info and they might just read that and get the wrong idea, no offense intended

 

[nick_1]

25g t7 3F and a 200g Lee Conical is the most accurate for my 1858

 

[RedPoin]

when I shot in competition I used 22-24 grains and round ball with lubed wad

 

[RedPoin]

when I shot in competition I used 22-24 grains and round ball with lubed wad

o and always swiss 3F, cci caps

 

[D Yager]

In my ROA I stuff in 41 gr of Swiss FFFG for deer hunting up close but accuracy at 50 yards is a pipe dream. It would make no sense wanting more velocity because Ruger used .45 Colt barrels. I sure wish the twist was slower.

Glad you told me that, that jackrabbit I dropped at 75 yards a few years back should still be alive. That shot was made with my beater ROA with the sewer pipe bore shooting a 200 gr semi wadcutter.

 

[rodwha]

I use only BP in my revolver, the powder I might be concerned with is 777 but never tried it because it does not like any compression. But since it is used by volume, I suppose you can't get too much in to be a problem.

The compression issue is only when loading metallic cartridges where they mentioned very light compression.

 

[45man]

The compression issue is only when loading metallic cartridges where they mentioned very light compression.

Thank you, good to know. Yes my days of BPCR was where I found the compression thing. I have 777 so have to give it a go.

 

[45man]

Glad you told me that, that jackrabbit I dropped at 75 yards a few years back should still be alive. That shot was made with my beater ROA with the sewer pipe bore shooting a 200 gr semi wadcutter.

Yes the OA does better with bullets and I made a mold for one, But then again there is less powder under a bullet. I have only used RB for deer. Does a nice job too but they must be archery distance.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

To the OP, before filler Id use powder, wad, wad ball. Fill the space. That is how holy black works best.

To all the BPC folks. We use a powder drop to accelerate the powder so the shards all point downward.
Thus making the powder compress better.

We compress the powder so when the pill is applied, it make NO air in the cartridge

Not needed for hand guns.

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

Thank you for chiming in Dexterado, my apologies, I was being a bit facetious. The proper way to determine volume is my weighing the charge on a scale. It’s volume will vary, sometimes greatly, depending on powder brand, granulation and lot number! Commercial nuzzles, spouts and measure are approximates for the most part and some can be waaaay off the mark!

When they say recommended charge, they’re talking grains as in how many grains your flask nozzle holds. I have different nozzles for my flask that are between 25 and 40. I use different nozzles depending on what I’m shooting. I have an 1858 that is broken at the moment, but I would use the 30 grain nozzle, and .451 ball. It’s an old Gregorelli Uberti one though.

Thank you for chiming in Dexterado, my apologies, I was being a bit facetious. The proper way to determine volume is by weighing the charge on a scale, then determine the volume and adjust or create your measure accordingly. It’s volume will vary, sometimes greatly, depending on powder brand, granulation and lot number! Commercial nuzzles, spouts and measure are approximates for the most part and some can be waaaay off the mark!