1858 misfiring

[RedFeather]

Waaaaay back in '73 I bought an 1858 imported by Hawes. I noticed right off that some of the nipples weren't firing the caps. I was able to get it shooting by shimming them out with a piece of tin foil. Thinking that they were bored too deeply intot the cylinder, I had a "gunsmith" (yes, a professional) attempt to get the hammer to strike lower. He said he ground the hammer throat or some such thing. I put it aside for a couple of years and then had an opportunity to try it out. Still had the same problem. I was looking at it and popping a few caps on an empty cylinder when I noticed the hammer impression on the caps failing to detonate had little half moons impressed in them. The cylinder appears to a bit out of alignment. Does that sound reasonable? Is there a way to bend the frame and bring it back? I have heard this has been a problem with some of the 58's.

RedFeather

 

[LRB]

If the cylinder is in fact out of alighnment, my suggestion would be to buy a set of nipples that are a tad longer, or you may be able to use what you have, Using a transfer color, hand file and fit the nipples to get a reasonably square strike. Realigning the frame would most likely be impractible to impossible. Your hammer spring may also be too weak. Check that. Worse comes to worse, sell it, and buy another.

 

[brubincam]

years ago i had a 51 navy repro that came with very thin washers under the nipples to make them reach the hammer,,,dont remember the make,,, :thumbsup:

 

[ValleyForge]

I have the same problem with an 1861 Uberti Navy Colt.. WIth some caps (CCI), I can have a whole cylinder misfire first time around, then work the 2nd. With Remington caps it's a little better, but still not reliable.

Ideas, gents?

-- VF

 

Most "gunsmiths" are actually gun cleaners and parts replacers. Attempting to analyze a problem with something that does not have Rem Mod 1100 stamped on the side is usually beyond their capabilities.

Sometimes the cast hammers on these guns show one side of the hammer face higher then the other. That may be why you have the half moon strikes on the caps. Filing the hammer face smooth and square should solve the problem.

Not having the caps firmly seated will cause misfires of this type. Dry fireing will mushroom the nipples and cause this in only a couple of hammer falls. Remove the nipples, chuck them in a drill and polish them until the caps seat.

Many times this condition occurrs when the cylender slips foreward under the power of the hammer fall. Your cylender is probably slapping back and forth every time you drop the hammer. Many of the 1858 copies have excessive barrel cylinder gap so they can continue fireing when fowling builds up. I have seen as much as .020 when all you need is .004.

A shim on the cylender pin between the frame and cylender will probably cure the problem.

The next complaint will be that you can only shoot it 12 times before you have to clean it so the cylender will turn.

:hatsoff:

 

[Zonie]

With reguard to the hammer pinching the cap against the nipple when the gun is fired, first I will point out that the hammer does not really stop on the nipple. It uses the two surfaces on either side of the hammer nose to stop on the guns frame.
If the nipples are too short, the hammer will hit the guns frame without crushing the precussion cap against the nipple.

With the hammer at half cock, you will be able to move the cylinder towards and away from the barrel. This clearance is needed to prevent fouling lock up of the cylinder.

With no caps on the nipples and the hammer down, the cylinder should not move away from the barrel by more than a few thousandths of an inch. You should not feel any perceptible movement of the cylinder in the aft direction as you push on it.

If the cylinder can be pushed backwards when the hammer is down, either the caps are too short or the stops on the hammer are preventing it from hitting the caps properly.

IMO, filing the nose of the hammer to square it up will assure that the hammer will be incapable of hitting the nipples properly unless an equal amount of material is removed from both sides of the hammer stops.
As the hammer is case hardened, this may not be practical.

IMO, the best thing to do first is to buy some new nipples and see if that solves the problem.

 

[RedFeather]

Thanks, guys. I failed to mention that the hammer was hitting the sides of the cylinder notches for the bad nipples. That is, the half moons are a "C", so I am guessing that the hammer is hitting only with the left side (the right stiking the cylinder). I need to get it out and try dropping a rod down the cylinder to see if the holes line up with the barrel. Read this somewhere long ago in a Muzzle Blasts or someplace. There was a smith in Maryland who would rebore Pietta .36's to .44's to make sure of the barrel/cylinder alignment. Maybe a set of longer nipples will do the trick. Although I wonder if I won't be getting any spitting on the forcing cone if she is out of alignment. Guess I can give it a paper test for fragments if I can get her back in service. Last time I picked it up she was froze solid from (I hope) dried oil. Hate to spray it with Blaster as that stuff stinks!

RedFeather

 

[ValleyForge]

Someone on another forum mentioned a company named "Tesso" that makes high-quality replacement nipples. I can't find the company on the internet or on Dixie Gun Works' site. Anyone know of these guys?

 

[Zonie]

"...I failed to mention that the hammer was hitting the sides of the cylinder notches for the bad nipples..."
________________
By all means, check the alignment of the barrel with the cylinder.
Either the cylinder timing (to the barrel) is off or the hammer nose is machined off center.

Whatever it is, the hammer should not ever be hitting the cylinder.

 

[RedFeather]

I will have to look at it again. I think it was only hitting the nipple notches where the misfires occur. There was an article in MB some years ago about straightening an 1858 frame, but I no longer have the issue. Guess this is either a project gun or I can turn it inoto a desk lamp. (Barrel pointed up and socket mounted into it. I'ld get a lot more $ for it that way, anywho.)

RedFeather

ps - Those nipples were by Tresso, not Tesso.