Are cap rakes really necessary or a solution in search of any real problem ?

[45D]

I heard you say that before about through hardened but don't think that's correct but as I've not cut into one I can't say positively and they are case colored and I believe made of 8620 equivalent case harden-able steel alloy.
If it is 8620 or equivalent than it is designed for case hardening (carbon infusion) not through hardening at up to a depth of .050 if held to 1700 F. for 4 hours before the quench. It is very nearly impossible to get good case color with charcoal much over 1400 F and water quench . Deep case usually does not produce good color but a drab gray and is not quenched in water but oil because of it's tendency to crack at the high heat required for a deep case.
One can case with cyanide but Uberti colors are not consistent with this method as far as I can tell at this point in understanding of the process. Early Stevens case colors are a good example of cyanide casing.
I think the potential for fatigue cracking in the inside neck area weakened by cross cutting into a drilled purchase hole, over time, is still present and wither cased or through hardened makes little difference.
The reason I hold with this thinking is that most open top percussion revolvers impact the frame mid curve in the hammer neck to arrest the nose hitting on the nipples with full force and this impact area is above the cross cut for the shield fold which is stressing through the cross cut located where the hammer body narrows into the neck.
I don't see any need to ever remove the shield from the hammer for cleaning as there is no cross cut fold opening for fouling or cap refuse to fall into.
Also it took maybe 15 minutes to sweat on the shield to the removed and stripped hammer and I'd never done it before so if it holds up it will be a good purchase alternative that's easy to do and to keep clean.
Pay attention to solder qualification and apply heat at intervals and there will be no danger of softening adjacent parts that need to stay hard. Also for extra heat protection simply apply a bit of heat control paste on the cam and cocking notches.

Well the nice thing about having CAS shooters as customers, your work gets tested!! Active cowboy shooters shoot these revolvers as much in a year as the average revolvers get shot in a lifetime. So, I'll stick with 100's of revolvers that have been through 6 lifetimes with no hammers breaking!! That's a good enough test for me.

As to the hammer contact area on the frame being a "stop", it's not the frame, it's the nipple with a cap on it (or the nipple if there's no cap). Only the converted revolvers have hammers contact the frame as a stop. This keeps the conversion ring from needless bashing since the firing pin is the only part that needs any contact from the hammer. So that would actually narrow down the number of revolvers that "might" be susceptible to breaking. There again, there's a llllot of conversions out there that haven't broken yet - including mine!!

Here's the setup for a "flush" mounting of the shield with no "hook" on the end ( conv. hammer) :

This pic shows the cutaway so that the shield can be recessed to allow the "hook" to be more prominent and effective :

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Well the nice thing about having CAS shooters as customers, your work gets tested!! Active cowboy shooters shoot these revolvers as much in a year as the average revolvers get shot in a lifetime. So, I'll stick with 100's of revolvers that have been through 6 lifetimes with no hammers breaking!! That's a good enough test for me.

As to the hammer contact area on the frame being a "stop", it's not the frame, it's the nipple with a cap on it (or the nipple if there's no cap). Only the converted revolvers have hammers contact the frame as a stop. This keeps the conversion ring from needless bashing since the firing pin is the only part that needs any contact from the hammer. So that would actually narrow down the number of revolvers that "might" be susceptible to breaking. There again, there's a llllot of conversions out there that haven't broken yet - including mine!!

Here's the setup for a "flush" mounting of the shield with no "hook" on the end ( conv. hammer) :
View attachment 313108

This pic shows the cutaway so that the shield can be recessed to allow the "hook" to be more prominent and effective :
View attachment 313112


Mike

Give it some more time, it should eventually stress crack in your cut. I'm surprised you never discovered the curve of the hammer stop Sam designed into open top guns. That would explain your ill conceived shield purchase cut position.
Ever notice the cheek stops on either side of the hammer nose in Remington 58s.
The idea of both is to check some of the of hammer inertia force on the nipple to keep them from battering in short order . All of my open tops I've checked, including the new Walker (Uberti) and 51 (Pietta) should and do show contact in the hammer curve over the arbor root.

 

[M. De Land]

I got the shield on the Walker today. I found a thin strip of brass and copied Mikes design but not liking the cross cut in the hammer purchase I attached mine with low temp silver solder sweat joint.
I did try to pry up the shield from both corners of the sweat joint and it held solid so we'll see if it does over time and use. It sure seals up the hammer mortise top to bottom with that hook on the end.
I put the action back together and all seems to function smoothly.
I also remembered to take a photo of the sear lift in the full **** notch.
Tomorrow I think I'll go to work on the loading lever latch I worked up on a piece of cardboard.
I'll do the front sight last to get it positioned as best I can with the lever catch tower to balance the profile. This means two dovetail cuts, one over the other in the barrel near the muzzle. I would prefer to offset them a bit but will have to wait and see how it looks.

Look at the side view of the shield, see the contact area with the frame/arbor root in the curve just above the shield purchase on the hammer. This is Sam's method/invention of checking the full hammer force that causes premature nipple batter in open frame guns.

 

[BeardedGunsmith]

Give it some more time, it should eventually stress crack in your cut. I'm surprised you never discovered the curve of the hammer stop Sam designed into open top guns. That would explain your ill conceived shield purchase cut position.
Ever notice the cheek stops on either side of the hammer nose in Remington 58s.
The idea of both is to check some of the of hammer inertia force on the nipple to keep them from battering in short order . All of my open tops I've checked, including the new Walker (Uberti) and 51 (Pietta) should and do show contact in the hammer curve over the arbor root.

You're just a real daisy, aren't ya.

 

[45D]

M. De Land , yes, I had noticed that.

In fact, for the rest of you folks that may be interested, the REASON the main setup is an "interference" fit (means parts contact) is to ensure ignition. Folks typically like their revolvers to go bang and ESPECIALLY the cowboy crowd.
Just as the automotive industry made advancements from the racing community, the same can be done with SA revolvers . . . not that any of that is new. The cap post gained popularity in the CAS events so it's an obvious addition to include in a tuning package. The shield came about as an "insurance policy" with the added benefit of greatly reducing the introduction of fouling into the action. Nobody likes to cut a range visit short because of malfunction.
So, the need (or want) for the "stop" in the hammer slot would be to mitigate damage to the nipples from a roughly 8lb. hammer blow ( mine is half that), not to mention that Colt's build quality may have been a little better than the Italians. The reproductions are "hit or miss" (slight pun) with the "non-interference" setup. The nice thing is you can use the stop if needed depending on the revolvers use.
Fanning- I've set fanners up both ways. Early on I had a customer want a pair of fanners that he could dry fire so the frame stop was used.
Competition- dry fire is an option but an ftf is definitely more a possibility than an interference setup.
Conversions - all conversions are set up to utilize the frame stop. There's absolutely no reason for there to be contact of the hammer and the conversion ring. Only the firing pin gets to meet the hammer!

So, yes, I knew the frame stop was there.

Mike

 

[AlexB]

These 3D printed caps make such mods A thing of the past.
They just won't bind or jam the action in any way.
No melting or sticking either........this is the solution to quite a few issues.
Made by @BeardedGunsmith and sold on amazon.

 

[oldschoolhunter55]

M. De Land , yes, I had noticed that.

In fact, for the rest of you folks that may be interested, the REASON the main setup is an "interference" fit (means parts contact) is to ensure ignition. Folks typically like their revolvers to go bang and ESPECIALLY the cowboy crowd.
Just as the automotive industry made advancements from the racing community, the same can be done with SA revolvers . . . not that any of that is new. The cap post gained popularity in the CAS events so it's an obvious addition to include in a tuning package. The shield came about as an "insurance policy" with the added benefit of greatly reducing the introduction of fouling into the action. Nobody likes to cut a range visit short because of malfunction.
So, the need (or want) for the "stop" in the hammer slot would be to mitigate damage to the nipples from a roughly 8lb. hammer blow ( mine is half that), not to mention that Colt's build quality may have been a little better than the Italians. The reproductions are "hit or miss" (slight pun) with the "non-interference" setup. The nice thing is you can use the stop if needed depending on the revolvers use.
Fanning- I've set fanners up both ways. Early on I had a customer want a pair of fanners that he could dry fire so the frame stop was used.
Competition- dry fire is an option but an ftf is definitely more a possibility than an interference setup.
Conversions - all conversions are set up to utilize the frame stop. There's absolutely no reason for there to be contact of the hammer and the conversion ring. Only the firing pin gets to meet the hammer!

So, yes, I knew the frame stop was there.

Mike

thanks bud for explaining.i trust what you are saying keepem smokin. friend

 

[45D]

View attachment 313619View attachment 313620
These 3D printed caps make such mods A thing of the past.
They just won't bind or jam the action in any way.
No melting or sticking either........this is the solution to quite a few issues.
Made by @BeardedGunsmith and sold on amazon.

Interesting!

 

[AlexB]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0CYNVFP1P?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image
Here is a link if you are interested.

 

[Ed C.]

I have posted this before..

I have a Uberti 1851 navy I bought a couple of years ago now, right from Dixie gun works, never have had a cap jam or any other issues and shoots really well. I guess some of you have bought lemons or just like modifying things.

I am going to leave it alone and just keep shooting it.

Depends what you are shooting. 1851's and remingtons shed the caps and hulls well. Walkers, not so much.

 

[Bad Karma]

Depends what you are shooting. 1851's and remingtons shed the caps and hulls well. Walkers, not so much.

My 1860’s flick them out through the cap channel as Col. Colt intended.

 

[Josh Canuck]

AlexB you said: "Made by @BeardedGunsmith and sold on amazon."

But they can't be shipped to Canada. Can't be shipped to Australia either IIRC from another post. So, probably available onty to US addresses. Too bad!

 

[AlexB]

That sucks cuz they are excellent.
Is that a law or regulation on your end or a Amazon thing?

But they can't be shipped to Canada. Can't be shipped to Australia either IIRC from another post. So, probably available onty to US addresses. Too bad!

 

[BeardedGunsmith]

But they can't be shipped to Canada. Can't be shipped to Australia either IIRC from another post. So, probably available onty to US addresses. Too bad!

I'll add them to my Canada store on Amazon. I'll tag you once I get it figured out.

 

[Josh Canuck]

Gee! Thanks BeardedGunsmith!

 

[Daveboone]

I am kinda loath to say anything among the gunsmiths here. But i will tell my experience.
Over the winter i did some mild sanding/filing of the hammer face. Very slightly opened up the groove. Very Slightly. Rounded all sharp points on hammer face, groove. Also i replaced nipples with slixshot.
Went to range today, shot about 100 rounds. A variety of all caps made.
Not one cap jam. Not one cap fell into the action. They all rotated after firing to the right and fell out as Sam Colt intended.
I certainly don’t intend to infer that any gunny customization isnt need. But mine doesn’t. Maybe I got a good one.
We wont discuss my .31 who is going to stand in a corner and get no dinner for being very bad today.

About two years ago I picked up a Pietta 1860. Some cap jam problems. After reading up on the forum, I settled down with some fine stones and sand paper and worked on the hammer face. About 100 rounds later, not a single jam. I love that gun. I have an 1862 from Uberti....I can usually cycle past the caps with more muscle, but it definitely needs some love and tenderness with the stones too. I am confident I will get her to the same as the Pietta. But I also know I will never be shooting competitively, and speed is never an issue.

 

[M. De Land]

You're just a real daisy, aren't ya.

Well I ain't afraid to say what I believe to be correct gun craft !

 

[CyrusP]

Give it some more time, it should eventually stress crack in your cut. I'm surprised you never discovered the curve of the hammer stop Sam designed into open top guns. That would explain your ill conceived shield purchase cut position.

@45D, you really SHOULD do a voluntary recall on your “ill conceived shield cut position” just to be safe. I mean, you can’t trust hundreds of shooters using your guns shooting thousands of rounds each in competition for several years now to tell you the truth.

 

[M. De Land]

@45D, you really SHOULD do a voluntary recall on your “ill conceived shield cut position” just to be safe. I mean, you can’t trust hundreds of shooters using your guns shooting thousands of rounds each in competition for several years now to tell you the truth.

About the same thinking as use of 12L14 screw stock alloy for barrel steel being a good idea just because it doesn't fail regularly , until it does. At least if the hammer fails it's not going to blow anyone up !

 

[45D]

[/QUOTE]

@45D, you really SHOULD do a voluntary recall on your “ill conceived shield cut position” just to be safe. I mean, you can’t trust hundreds of shooters using your guns shooting thousands of rounds each in competition for several years now to tell you the truth.

Well, I guess the cat is out of the bag !!! Everyone's been wondering where the caps have been the last couple of years . . .
I've gottum!! ALL of um !!! Been testing something new for several months and we should have a pretty good handle on the "longevity" of it in about 20 more years. Stay tuned . . . ( "tuned", see what I did there . . . ?)

Mike

( something tells me it would only take 1 broken hammer to deem them all faulty though)