1858 New Army gonna get one

[monkr]

Decided to get one. My questions are is there a big advantage to an 8" over a 5 1/2". My friend that does civil war competion shooting said I need 8" and that he only uses 10 to 12 grains of powder. All of this is new to me and I will probably be asking what kind and where to get the powder and bullets. Once againthanks for any advice beside my friend even though a good guy is really a know it all who shoots 140 in golf and believes hes world class material.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Decided to get one. My questions are is there a big advantage to an 8" over a 5 1/2". My friend that does civil war competion shooting said I need 8" and that he only uses 10 to 12 grains of powder. All of this is new to me and I will probably be asking what kind and where to get the powder and bullets. Once againthanks for any advice beside my friend even though a good guy is really a know it all who shoots 140 in golf and believes hes world class material.

First, welcome to the Forum!

As far as barrel length, it's personal preference, unless there is a rule at a game you play (Civil War Reenacting?). All of my barrels are 7.5" or longer, the standard length that the guns come in.

As far as advantages in longer barrel: longer sight radius means better chance at being more accurate. Longer barrel better for hunting due to more powder gets to burn INSIDE the barrel!

AS far as powder: 10-12 grains is too wimpy to shoot with unless he's also putting cream of wheat or some other cereal/filler on top of the powder prior to loading the balls into the chambers :idunno: . My guns don't eat cereal-ever! I use 27 grains in my 1858 .44 cal, a pre-lubed wonder-wad, and a .454 Hornady ball. Shoot NRA Expert with that loading, out to 50 yards! :wink:

Let us know which one you're thinking about...some are made of brass and require a little lighter load, but not down so much that the loading lever's rammer won't even compress the powder underneath the balls :youcrazy: .

Stay in touch!

Dave

 

[tnlonghunter]

I really like mine, which is the 8" Army .44. I shoot 25 grains and don't need cereal either. While 10-12 grains will probably be enough to get the ball out of the barrel, I seriously doubt it will be enough to provide any kind of decent accuracy at a range more than a few feet. You need a certain amount of powder to reach optimum muzzle-velocity, which helps stabilize the ball and achieve best accuracy. If you just want to plink at 5-10 yards, then the 5 1/2 barrel and 10-12 grains might be a good idea. It would certainly be rather economical (at least in terms of powder consumption), but it's not like 25 grains is all that much either. But I think the 8" is a better all-around choice, especially for a first cap-and-ball revolver.

 

[R.M.]

Now there's the difference between Dave and I. I don't need a magnum to poke holes in paper. I do use wimpy loads with cereal. Works well for me. Doesn't eat up a lot of powder, doesn't beat the hell out of me or the gun, and doesn't make me feel like less of a man. If my testosterone level is up, I load it up, but mostly I prefer to cook up some breakfast as I shoot. :wink: :surrender:

 

[Blizzard of '93]

welcome to a great Forum monkr.
get the 8" barrel and use a .38spcl case for a 'target' powder measure, a .357mag is a stouter load and about all you'll need for target.
a 7.62X39 case (AK or SKS round) is a 'hot' load of powder.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

10-12 grains of powder is too loose in the chamber WITHOUT the cereal, as the rammer only goes down just so far! The reason to use the cereal is two-fold: conserve powder while at the same time bring the balls up closer to the chamber mouths, which is necessary in order to tweak the most accuracy out of the revolvers.

Uniform "compaction" of the powder charge means less deviation in the velocity of the balls (lower sdv), and can only be maintained when cereal is used with lighter loads. Otherwise the rammer doesn't reach the powder at 10-12 grains in a .44 cal revolver, resulting in a higher sdv, which in turn produces wider groups, instead of the tighter groups that target shooters are interested in.

Dave

 

[bkovire]

how do, i have the rem58" tex new army, brass, 8 1/2" brl. it likes the pellets, 30gr 454 rb with wonder wads, i like this gun not only for fun but self defense, if need be(hope it never happens), i like the long brl, don't like shorts to much recoil, go and get a hand on feel, dose it balance well, is lite, heavy, mind you once its loaded it will be heavier, the 5 1/2" brl is for fast draws, and shorter range, the longer the brl, the longer shot, more thud, than smack, their is also the bison ver. 12" to 18" that is the one with the rifle stock add on, and yes it did bring down a bison, 2 to 3 well placed shots 35 to75 yard range, so i'v been told. one more thing i shoot one handed, just the way i was trained. shoot the way that best feels good to you, start with the small powder charge 15gr work you way up, keep a log, what load (powder charge) ball, wads, 1/8" 44/45cal store bought lube, or self lube, what type of lube, as you can see the art of bp can be fun, i'm still try'n out dif loads ball ok, but dose the powder, wads combo make a difference. have fun! make smoke! be safe!, were ear plugs!!!, and eye protection,!!! :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

R.M.,

I didn't mean to offend, if I did I'm really sorry! I had a couple bad experiences with shooters using cereal...one time a .36 shot with 10 grains came back off of the plywood target frame and almost took my eye out! I was next to the guy and he didn't know that they were coming back at us! Not enough push to go through the target!

I like the big BOOM and I have to admit it! My revolver of choice is my Walker with 52 grain rifle charge, a wonder-wad, and a .454 Hornady ball. Cuts clean circles in the paper like a wadcutter .45, and a little wind doesn't affect where the balls land on the paper. No other revolver makes holes as clean-looking...must be the speed that they break the paper!

The smallest charge I use is the 27 grain one in my '58 and in the '60 Army. That's a very accurate charge in that fluted cylinder charcoal finish Army: 4 out of 13 shots in the 10 ring at 50 yards, strong-hand only during a NRA Qualification Match.

Everybody shoots different--my way isn't any better/worse than yours, just different :wink: . The world would be a boring place if we all did everything the same all of the time anyway :haha:

Dave

 

[mykeal]

27 grains is a 'magnum' load that 'beats the crap out of the gun'???

What color is the sky in your world, R.M.?

27 grains in a .58 Remington with an 8" barrel is an ACCURACY load, not a 'magnum' load. At least it is for those who are able to shoot the gun accurately; some folks, like me, can't shoot a pistol well enough to take advantage of the increased accuracy of a moderate load over a small load, but those who can certainly prefer it.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with shooting 10 or 15 grain loads in a Remington, as long as you can seat the ball. But 27 grains is certainly NOT a 'magnum' load.

 

[DanChamberlain]

My Remmie likes...no it loves 30 grains of black powder fffg! But you can use 25 or 27 if you have a hangover and your head is hurting.

Never tried the "cereal" thing. Never had it in the pantry and I refuse to put good pancake mix in my chambers!

I've heard it said that some cap and ball revolvers shoot better with significantly reduced loads and fillers...but I'm certain that's what has contributed to global warming and our recent lack of snow.

Dan

 

[Poor Private]

I use both the 7.5" barrel and the 5.5" barrel(of course not on the same gun). I use 27 grain of powder in both then a wonder wad and the ball. I use them mostly for target practise, self defense, and civil war reenacting. The only difference between the civ war loads and the target loads is no balls, and I use oatmeal as a filler/sealer. First off get one that fits your hand, some have a more heftier grips than others. Both of mine are Uberti's the only difference is the 5.5" is a Cimmaron. I like and use them both equally. But if I am taking a walk thru the woods out back I take the 5.5". Less interference with the brush and the shorter holster doesn't tangle up with the high brush as easily when your walking.

 

[R.M.]

OK guys, we all shoot what we think is best, and that load varies for us all. Never said one particular load was better, or worse. What I'm trying to do, is show a new shooter that light loads with filler is acceptable, and can do the job.
Shoot what you want, I do. We need to start low, and work up to where we're happy with the results, whatever the load happens to be, as long as it's safe for the gun.

"27 grains is a 'magnum' load that 'beats the crap out of the gun" Those are your words, not mine.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

My Remmie likes...no it loves 30 grains of black powder fffg! But you can use 25 or 27 if you have a hangover and your head is hurting.

Never tried the "cereal" thing. Never had it in the pantry and I refuse to put good pancake mix in my chambers!

I've heard it said that some cap and ball revolvers shoot better with significantly reduced loads and fillers...but I'm certain that's what has contributed to global warming and our recent lack of snow.

Dan

:rotf: :haha: You two are something else! Like 3 grains is gonna make my headache go away :shake: . Pancake mix? Where's the REAL maple syrup? Global Warming caused by wimpy loads, Dan? I should have thought of that one! :idunno:

I just feel that the Shootists from yesteryear pushed in all of the powder that the gun would hold. They wanted MAXIMUM EFFECT! In today's world, a power factor of just 60 (200 grain bullet going 300 FPS) makes it for Cowboy Action Shooting! You can watch the rounds hit the target, and recoil (as well as reality) is a thing of the past :shake: :surrender: :youcrazy: :shocked2: . And most of 'em are using smokeless to boot!

Dave

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

My Uberti 1858 has a 8" tube. My Pietta is the Stainless Buffalo with 12" tube. I use a full 35 grain charge in that one! Both are good shooters!

Do you use lube to seal the blank loads, or some sort of card? Are you doing the mounted discipline with the blanks--that seems very interesting indeed!

Dave

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

OK guys, we all shoot what we think is best, and that load varies for us all. Never said one particular load was better, or worse. What I'm trying to do, is show a new shooter that light loads with filler is acceptable, and can do the job.
Shoot what you want, I do. We need to start low, and work up to where we're happy with the results, whatever the load happens to be, as long as it's safe for the gun.

"27 grains is a 'magnum' load that 'beats the crap out of the gun" Those are your words, not mine.

Actually they're extrapolated from your remarks. The '58 chambers will hold close to 40 grains and a ball, without the wad. Just some grease over the tops of the balls. But that is of no consequence. That's how to "magnumize" a 1858!

What we should all be doing with newbies is to remind them to make/purchase a good loading stand! That's the safest way to enjoy the hobby, no matter how many different substances we pour into each chamber! :thumbsup:

We can all agree that we have more in common than not, otherwise we wouldn't be here :wink: .

Dave

 

[Blizzard of '93]

the load of a X39 caseful of 3F leaves room for a hand-made felt 1/16th" and a Lee mold conical is a tight squeeze to fit below the chamber mouth.
I'm not recommending this to anyone, I load this in my Pietta 'Buffalo' 12" barrel - but I have seen this load blow through small jack pine that stopped 125 h-p .357mag from 4" Taurus. it sure blew through a fat 100 lb field dressed feral hog. one shot DRT from about 30' shooting out of a ground blind over bait (legal here in NC) went through the shoulders clipped the spine and on to parts unknown. not what I'd call a 'target load' but I do practice some with it to check my sights to POA before going after game.

 

[DanChamberlain]

I don't believe anyone can tell the difference between 27 grains or 30 grains, so my reply was tongue in cheek.

But then you will find shooters who swear that their pet load right down to the tenth of a grain is more accurate than the one that is one tenth of a grain more or less powerful! Or that their rifle likes 75 grains but shoots 76 grains poorly!

Black powder simply is not that efficient in a revolver that 25 or 30 grains is going to make that much of a difference.

My "hunting" load with a .36 Navy is 20 grains of 777 and it shot through a nice red fox a few years ago.

Now I'm going to confess to using 10 grains in it...but that was with wax bullets in the basement.

Dan

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I know that it was a tongue-in-cheek move!

As far as 25 or 30 grains in a revolver, last year I would have agreed with you...this year I went with 27 and the gun knows the difference, so I can only say that I'm doing everything else the same and the scores are going up. My theory on this is that a few grains can make (in this example) a 10% difference in the amount of powder. a 5 grain difference between 20 and 25 grains can be as much as a 25% increase in the amount of powder, which can be significant. Using the wads to bring the balls up closer to the chamber mouths has also been helpful. The amount of pressure on the rammer to seat the balls to the same depth has something to do with where the balls wind-up on the paper too. It all plays a minor role, but when put together, results in a very good improvement in a shooter's score. At least that's what I'm finding in this journey along the "Dark Side" :haha:

Dave

 

[mykeal]

Now there's the difference between Dave and I. I don't need a magnum to poke holes in paper. I do use wimpy loads with cereal. Works well for me. Doesn't eat up a lot of powder, doesn't beat the hell out of me or the gun,

Hmmm. Must have been a server error. :hmm:

 

[R.M.]

Hmmm, I don't see any numbers mentioned in any of my posts at all. Must be a server error.

As I said before, I'm trying to let a new C&B shooter see that light loads are acceptable.