1858, Revisted

[RedFeather]

I posted a while back about a circa 1972 Remington 1858 that does not consistently set off caps. Well, I just took it out, cleaned it and looked it over in detail. Here's what is going on: The nipples, when viewed through the hammer slot in the frame at full cock, all appear to be about 1/16th in too far left. The cylinder locks up tight with almost not play. Does this sound like a warped frame? I don't see any type of wobble in the cylinder as I cycle it which I would expect if the central axis were bored off. Or could it be the spiral at the rear was cut wrong? It really has me stumped. The hammer looks ok and fits the frame well.

I remember a Muzzle Blasts from maybe the late 80's or early 90's that mentioned having to bend 1858 frames and how to do it. If anyone has a copy and can relate the details, I would appreciate it. I could just run about a zillion caps through it until the hammer/notches wore in, but then I'm thinking my rounds will be smacking the forcing cone on the left. Maybe it's destined to become a re-enactor gun. (Hate to give those guys anything nice, having seen the used specimens that turn up in pawn shops.)

Thanks-in-advance,

RedFeather

 

[Tight_Wad]

Red feather

Ideally, the nipples will be presented in the middle of the hammer slot and be struck square-on by the hammer. However, I've owned repro's where this hasn't always been the case and it's difficult to tell if the cylinder timing/indexing is incorrect or the hammer slot is not central. I don't recall having a problem setting off caps though. Generally, the hammer drop is pretty heavy and even a cap stuck slightly off-centre will go off. If the gun is circa 1970's, are the nipples themselves in good shape? Replacement nipples are quite cheap - I would try this first. Personally, I wouldn't try bending the frame - it's a better option to junk the gun and buy a better made item IMO.

Good luck with getting it shooting again

Tight Wad :hatsoff:

 

[Zonie]

The nipple being offcenter implys that the cylinder is not rotated to the correct location.
If this is true, the chamber will not be lining up with the barrel either.

Have you tried running a patched jag down the barrel to see if it easily enters the chamber?
This should be done with each chamber to varify the correct indexing.

If the chambers are not aligned with the barrel, I have no idea of an easy fix. In this condition, the gun will never shoot accuratly and the only solution I can think of would be a major rework of the cylinder stop and the slot thru the frame.
If the chambers are aligned, I would guess the hammer slot was machined/cast too far to the right, making the nipple appear to be too far to the left.
Here again, I don't know of an easy fix. I think bending the frame would have to be more of a "twist the frame" between the cylinder stop and the hammer. 1/16 of an inch twist would be a lot and more than likely would cause other things like the cylinder pin or chambers to then be misaligned.

In theory, the hammer is never supposed to contact the top of the nipple, even when the hammer is fully down.
The hammer is supposed to stop on the frame of the gun.

If you wish to varify this is occuring, cut a narrow piece of newspaper (about 1/32 wide) and lay it on one of the stop faces of the hammer. Now lower the hammer until it stops on the frame.
The newspaper sliver should be pinched in place.
If it isn't pinched, try it on the other side of the hammer. I'm betting it will be trapped on one side or the other.
(When doing this test, make sure the paper isn't being pinched between the side of the hammer and the frame.)

When the hammer is stopped on the frame, its nose is supposed to clear the face of the nipple by about .001-.015.
As the priming compound thickness plus the back wall of the primer is about .050-.060 thick it should always be crushed by the hammer blow and IMO, should detonate even if only about half of it is struck.

It is very possible, that the nipples are either too short, or the hammer is being stopped by the frame too soon. This would create a condition where the distance between the hammer nose and the top of the nipple is excessive causing the missfires you are experiancing.
This could be corrected by installing taller nipples or carefully fileing the two shoulders (located on either side of the hammer nose) off to allow the hammer to fall farther down. If you choose to file these shoulders, be prepared to sacrifice a file because most of the hammers are case hardened in this area.

Let us know what you find and decide to do.

 

[John Taylor]

I think Zonie hit a lot of good points. I have never seen one off this far. If the frame is off you should be able to see it if you take the cylinder out and look through the hammer notch and the barrel. A dowel that will just fit down the barrel (7/16 ?) will tell if the barrel is lined up at full cock, it should slide on into the cylinder. If it won't then the bolt notches in the cylinder are wrong, may have a cylinder out of a different gun. I have never heard of one end of the cylinder being machined off from the other end but it could happen. If all ells fails I could look at it for you, I think I have a few extra cylinders in my stuff.

 

[RedFeather]

Thanks, guys. What's happening is the hammer is hitting the right side of the nipples notches. When the caps fail to detonate, it leaves half moon indentations on the right sides. I did get them to work by shimming the "bad" nipples with bits of tin foil. Longer nipples would do it, but I still think it's out of alignment. FWIW, there was (maybe still is) a guy in Maryland who set up Remingtons for competition. He told me the alignment on some of the Remingtons is not the best, so he would start building a gun by taking a .36 cylinder and reaming it out to .44 to ensure exact tolerances. (I believe he actually did this and wasn't BS'ng me.) As my cylinder stops are dead tight, I am thinking the cylinder may have been slightly offset during one of the milling steps; either drilling the holes or cutting the back. I know that smokeless revolvers do get out of time like this and to try the dowel rod. Will get a 7/8 piece a give her a go. Also, I think I can pull the nipples and try shining a light from behind to see if the nipple hole looks centered. If all else fails, they make a really dandy table lamp when wired through the barrel. Might bring more at a show that way, too. BTW, how can you tell if extra cylinders fit? Is it trial and error? This particular gun came in a Hawes box and is marked Euroarms, Brescia on the top flat.

RedFeather