1860 Colt Replica Question

[Trep11]

I have a 44 cal 1860 Colt BB replica made by ASM (Armi San Marco) of Italy. I purchased it new perhapes 30-35 years ago. All steel frame. Still in great condition. I have not fired it in some time. I have one real issue. After loading the cylinder and reassembling, it is the hammering back in the wedge and getting the complete assembly to seat properly. If I strike the wedge in firmly the cylinder is too tight and will not rotate. If I loosen the wedge just a bit, then the assemble is sloppy. Last time I shot it, a guys stops by who also had one. He says OH, just do this and that and he hammered in the wedge tight and the gun was perfect!!! I can not remember what he instructed. I was wondering if anyone has one and any comments.
Chuck

 

[Norinco]

Your arbor is too short. Hammer in the wedge until the gap is just right (about 0.003" minimum and 0.015" max or so). You want it so the forcing cone is parallel to the cylinder face, not skewed at an angle.

Hammering in the wedge too far will damage things.

I just bought a Colt Army from kwilfong here on the forums. As with many older replicas, it has that exact problem.

 

[Trep11]

Thanks for helping. Although I have had the gun a long time, I am really a novice. What is the arbor?

Chuck

 

[CaptainKirk]

Chuck, you should be able to seat the wedge with THUMB PRESSURE on a nicely tuned gun. You may have to do a little dressing/cleaning of either the wedge, arbor slot, or both. Look for burrs and distressed metal in this area. Clean it up before attempting anything else. There should be a slight gap with the wedge seated, just enough so the cylinder won't contact the forcing cone.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Thanks for helping. Although I have had the gun a long time, I am really a novice. What is the arbor?

Chuck

The shaft the cylinder spins on.

 

[Norinco]

There are a couple quick guides on this forum about gluing shims to the top of the arbor so that it bottoms out in the barrel at the perfect length.

 

[Trep11]

I will carefully dress up the wedge, slot and check the arbor.
Thanks,
Chuck

 

[Zonie]

The wedge and the hole thru the arbor (cylinder pin) are tapered so the further the wedge is driven in the more the barrel will be pushed back towards the cylinder.

Even if you don't attempt to add shims between the front of the arbor and the bottom of the hole that the arbor slides in to you can still use the gun by just tapping the wedge in and checking the shake of the cylinder.

When the cylinder rotates easily but does not move forward and aft noticeably your done.
The nose of the wedge does not have to protrude from the right side of the barrel and the little spring that is on the wedge does not have to engage the side of the barrel flat.

It is totally safe to shoot it in this condition.

As for loading the cylinder you should not have to remove it from the frame. Just use the built in loading lever and the ram it is connected to to seat the bullet/ball into the chambers.

 

[shooyer_250]

Anxious to read the final cure for this, I have the same exact aged make and model with the same problem...I just didn't know enough to ask the correct questions properly...waiting...
God I love this place..

God Bless

Lee

 

[Trep11]

Using the great advise provided to me from members, last night I spent about 45 mins dressing the wedge. First I determined that the wedge was too wide and rough. I felt this was the primary reason I was having trouble inserting and aligning it properly. If I were to tap the wedge through the frame it would pull the arbor too tight and force the cylinder against the barrel. So I put the wedge in my vise and carefully filed both sides to smooth the edges and to narrow the wedge width. I removed small amounts each time and refitted the wedge until I felt I had the correct width. Then I used 600 grit then 1200 grit paper to finish. The wedge is straight on the cylinder side and tappered on the barrel side. This shape is what forces the arbor forward when the wedge is pressed in. I still can not press the wedge in and through by hand, so I still need to do more careful refinement. But now when I tap the wedge in to where it should be with it protruding out the other side just enough for the tip of the spring on the wedge to catch the edge of the frame and the cylinder is now the perfect distance and alignment from the forcing cone (barrel).
Chuck

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Nothing needs to catch on the wedge. It will stay in place with the proper fit. The lip you're seeing is to keep the wedge from falling out when you remove the barrel.

 

[bdhutier]

... But now when I tap the wedge in to where it should be with it protruding out the other side just enough for the tip of the spring on the wedge to catch the edge of the frame and the cylinder is now the perfect distance and alignment from the forcing cone (barrel).
Chuck

Like Capper said, the spring does not need to engage the barrel flat. The purpose of the spring is to catch on the wedge screw on the other side, so the wedge doesn't easily come off the barrel when taking down the weapon (vs a longarm wedge, which is usually intended to be completely removed).

 

[Zonie]

As I mentioned, the wedge and the spring do not have to stick out of the side of the barrel flat but now that you've gone to the work to make it happen I'm sure you will feel more comfortable with it.

Anyway, 25 minutes.
That's how long it took me to change my Colt pistol so the barrel is properly shimmed to prevent any chance of the wedge pushing the barrel back to the point that it could lock up the cylinder.

To do this I removed the cylinder from the revolver and with the barrel wedge out of the way I installed the barrel onto the arbor with the lower lug to the right of where it should be.

I then noted the overlap of the lug with the forward part of the frame and measured it with my dial calipers. It turned out to be about .110.
This measurement is an approxiate value because the jaws of my caliper couldn't get down in there like they should.

I then measured the diameter of the arbor which in my case turned out to be about .430.
Looking for some stock that would be slightly smaller than that I found a fired .223 case that fits easily into the arbor hole in the barrel.

Using a hack saw and a vise I cut off the casing so I would have a piece that was about .120 long.
It happens that with this case, there is still solid brass in this area so I ended up with a piece of brass stock that is about .120 long and has the primer hole in the middle.

Again, with the barrel lug to the side of the frame I dropped this down into the barrels arbor hole and installed the frame/arbor.

The barrel lug was standing well away from the front of the frame so I removed the brass piece and started filing.

I continued this assembling and filing at least 6 times before the barrel lug got close to the front of the frame.

Measuring the brass piece it was now down to about .090 thick.
Carefully filing to make both sides parallel I reduced the thickness down to about .085.
At this thickness the barrel lug just touched the front of the frame.
I then removed the barrel, installed the cylinder and after rotating the barrel to align the lower two pins I pushed it onto the frame and noted the cylinder gap. With the cylinder pushed to the rear, the gap is about .012 which is about right for a black powder pistol.

At this point I removed the barrel and degreased the barrels arbor hole with denatured alcohol and applied just a small drop of epoxy to one side of the brass piece.
Placing this on the end of the frames cylinder arbor WITH THE EPOXY UP (away from the arbor) I installed the barrel onto the arbor until it bottomed. I then removed the barrel from the frame. The epoxy is setting up as I write this.

I should mention that the wedge does NOT stick out of the side of the barrel (it is flush with the side) and the little spring does not catch on the barrel flat but I'm totally happy.

I need to mention that the measurements I got will be totally different on any other pistol because there are a number of manufacturing tolerances that lead to the gap between the arbor and the bottom of the hole in the barrel. Each one of these tolerances will change the resulting gap so there is no way other than hand fitting to properly install one of these brass or steel shims.