Uberti 1860 short arbor fix

[M. De Land]

You would think someone in the loop, importer/manufacturer, would have already discussed this issue and come up with a solution going forward. I do not know since I do not own any of the newer example.

That is because they still work with short arbors but better if fit up tight. Most of the open frame percussion guns out their right now have this problem and will never be improved until the general public starts griping, getting them fixed and demanding tighter tolerances .
It's the customer complaints when enlightened that put pressure on manufactures to improve.

 

[Gun Tramp]

It's the customer complaints when enlightened that put pressure on manufactures to improve.

Well said. How were you able to contact Uberti? I didn't get very far...

 

[M. De Land]

Well said. How were you able to contact Uberti? I didn't get very far...

My hope is they keep an eye on these forums to get feed back from customers.
I fixed my own guns so don't really need Uberti's help but most customers will.
I think the company one buys their guns from has a repair number to contact for Uberti customer service and repair.

 

[French Colonial]

So..

What is the ideal barrel to cylinder gap on an open top 1851?

 

[Pete453]

I still lathe turn solid plugs with a hole in the middle for retrieval but Mikes screw head idea works fine and is much easier ,nay essential , if one has no lathe.
I find the correct thickness by first caliper measuring the arbor well perimeter , then using shim stock plugs on an over sized final plug that is gradually shortened to fine tune and driving the wedge in for gap measurements.
The shim stock plugs are when I take to much off the solid plug and need to get back to what is actually needed which means making another final plug. Most times I get it right the first go around but not always.

Not knocking your method, I have access to a lathe, and I would do it your way if making a plug. But the older I get, the more impatient I get!

So..

What is the ideal barrel to cylinder gap on an open top 1851?

I set my 1851 and 1860 at .003. The front of the cylinder stays clean, but that may be a byproduct of the lubed wads I use.

 

[45D]

So..

What is the ideal barrel to cylinder gap on an open top 1851?

Typically .0025" - .003" for cap guns. .002" -.0025" for cartridge.
(endshake).
Factory conversions come with a sleeve (gas ring) on the cylinder so they can have a designated gap with zero endshake. ( .002" - .0025" gap).

Mike

 

[ralphlyerly]

I have basically given up on Uberti fixing the short arbor issue. The guns do work with the short arbor and they must not view it as a problem. However, it’s not correct and can be annoying if you really like to use the guns very often.

I also have a Pietta 1860 that was manufactured in the last 10 years and arbor length is perfect. The quality of polish and blueing is a bit less than that of the Uberti and timing of the action needed a bit of adjustment in order to keep the bolt from occasionally binding the cylinder, but this was a fairly easy fix.

 

[M. De Land]

I have basically given up on Uberti fixing the short arbor issue. The guns do work with the short arbor and they must not view it as a problem. However, it’s not correct and can be annoying if you really like to use the guns very often.

I also have a Pietta 1860 that was manufactured in the last 10 years and arbor length is perfect. The quality of polish and blueing is a bit less than that of the Uberti and timing of the action needed a bit of adjustment in order to keep the bolt from occasionally binding the cylinder, but this was a fairly easy fix.

Yeah my ROA has a drag line from the bolt nose being a bit to high on half cock. I should give her a few licks with a stone to clear it one of these days although it hurts nothing. I'll check the cam but I doubt it is the cause.

 

[45D]

Yeah my ROA has a drag line from the bolt nose being a bit to high on half cock. I should give her a few licks with a stone to clear it one of these days although it hurts nothing. I'll check the cam but I doubt it is the cause.

You can definitely reduce the crown of the bolt head enough to allow no cyl contact which would alleviate the continuance of the unsightly scaring of the cyl.
If it's a stainless cyl, you can "scotch bright" it out if it's not gouged. I always use ss cylinders in my ROA's for the added "insurance" of easy clean up should it ever be needed.

Mike

 

[CaptainKirk]

Uberti will not fix the short arbor issue. They have gone from denying it exists to embracing it; my last purchase of an Uberti 1872 Open Top came with an owner's manual that discussed "setting the barrel gap using the adjustable wedge".
This (to me) is clearly lawyerspeak for 'never admit you're at fault', and "that's my story and I'm stickin' to it" syndrome. Thank goodness for guys like Mike who have set the record straight and are willing to share his tips and information with the unwashed masses!
I have three of his magic revolvers and would not trade or sell them for anything.

 

[M. De Land]

You can definitely reduce the crown of the bolt head enough to allow no cyl contact which would alleviate the continuance of the unsightly scaring of the cyl.
If it's a stainless cyl, you can "scotch bright" it out if it's not gouged. I always use ss cylinders in my ROA's for the added "insurance" of easy clean up should it ever be needed.

Mike

I routinely polish the tops and break the corners of the bolt in all revolvers so even if it contacts it doesn't gall. Leaned that from a Kunhauasen book if memory serves.
A rub line after bolt drop I can abide because I know it's cushioning/dampening the the bolt notch stop side but a gall would drive me nuts.
This was a second hand gun and came from the factory with the high bolt dome rubbing the cylinder.
I'll take the bolt crown down to clear next time I have her apart.

 

[JimCunn]

I remove the cylinder and reinstall the barrel on the arbor, rotated enough for the two pins to offset enough to clear the frame. I then measure the overlap (which is also the amount the arbor is short). I then chuck a stainless steel panhead sheet metal screw in a drill and spin the panhead on a piece of sandpaper till the head thickness matches the arbor deficiency. At that point, I cut the screw shaft off the head with a dremel cutoff wheel to form a spacer. I recheck spacing using the offset technique and file the backside of the screwhead to fine tune the fit. Then use loktite to hold the screwhead in place. Quick and easy.
Thanks, Mike.

 

[Smokerr]

Uberti is likely living with a problem they don't have to fix as the number of knowledgeable buyers vs those who do or did not not know (me) and the numbers are so skewed that they can ignore it.

Throw in some models Pietta does not make (1858 Rem Carbine) and the Walker Colt (pretty sure) and ..........

What would get attention would be a major drop in sales and that does not look to happen.

 

[French Colonial]

I almost hate to post this because of the negative reaction some will have, but here goes.

I bought a Uberti 1851 navy only because that is what my Great Grandfather carried in the civil war, not really my time period of interest.

Contrary to what others believe it shot great right out of the box with round balls, not so much with conicals or paper cartridges.

I see no reason to mess with it and I will not be playing with the arbor, YMMV.

 

[Smokerr]

I think that is a good approach. I was a mechanic/technician for many years and I always have to try to fix things.

Its good to have perspective from that side.

 

[colin1230]

The last four Uberti open top Colt revolvers that I have purchased in the last year have had arbors that were a perfect fit, to my honest to God surprise! Two were percussion Navy's and two were 72's in 45 Colt. So maybe, just maybe, Uberti has listened and corrected the short Arbor issue.
My other Colt open tops, a pair of 72's in 38 Spl and a pair of 1860 Army's, all had to be corrected. The route I chose was Larson Pettifogger's use of the Dillon #3 locator button fitted to the end of the arbor. It was a fun project and while I was at the drill press I drilled the frames and converted the paw/hand to accept the Ruger coil spring and plunger. I have to say that they all have turned out to be great, reliable shooters.
I'm really glad that so many have had good success with shimming the Arbor hole, a very viable fix in my opinion.

 

[Jaegermeister]

Hey, Mike. You told me my 1860’s arbor was surprisingly the correct length. Is that super rare? I’ve certainly had no problems. Maybe I just got lucky.

 

[45D]

I almost hate to post this because of the negative reaction some will have, but here goes.

I bought a Uberti 1851 navy only because that is what my Great Grandfather carried in the civil war, not really my time period of interest.

Contrary to what others believe it shot great right out of the box with round balls, not so much with conicals or paper cartridges.

I see no reason to mess with it and I will not be playing with the arbor, YMMV.

Not negative, just the fact that it isn't "as the originals" . . . so if it's no big deal to you then so what? The fact is, as far as the "power" the .36 Navy generates ( especially with middle of the road loads) it's not going to beat itself loose . . . especially with the materials used today as opposed to the originals. The main reason for correcting all of them is so that the assemblies go together and create the same revolver every time. It only makes sense that if there is no defining "stop" for how the assemblies come together then it can't be the most accurate assembly. So again, if you're happy with what you have already, fine.

The short arbor becomes a more significant problem when you're dealing with .44cal revolvers. They do generate enough power to "move material" and so eventually (depending on the loads one uses) it will show up. Belt pistols obviously weigh less and hold lighter loads than the horse pistols so they will hide symptoms easier than the big heavies. The horse pistols with heavy loads will accelerate the destruction and if you add heavy bullets it ramps up quickly!
On top of all that, the individual revolver with its particular tolerances will obviously factor in as well . . . start off loose, get looser quicker!!

Personally, my own posts in the numerous "short arbor" threads easily reveal the fact that a belt pistol ('60 Army) is capable of a steady diet of 220gr 23,000 psi loads, if correctly built as designed. Many modern revolvers can't do that. Step up to the Dragoons and I'm shooting 250gr 23,000 psi. . . . all this with absolutely no visible wear at all and maintaining tolerances. It's undeniable. So, be happy with what you have or . . . fix it.

Mike

 

[45D]

The last four Uberti open top Colt revolvers that I have purchased in the last year have had arbors that were a perfect fit, to my honest to God surprise! Two were percussion Navy's and two were 72's in 45 Colt. So maybe, just maybe, Uberti has listened and corrected the short Arbor issue.
My other Colt open tops, a pair of 72's in 38 Spl and a pair of 1860 Army's, all had to be corrected. The route I chose was Larson Pettifogger's use of the Dillon #3 locator button fitted to the end of the arbor. It was a fun project and while I was at the drill press I drilled the frames and converted the paw/hand to accept the Ruger coil spring and plunger. I have to say that they all have turned out to be great, reliable shooters.
I'm really glad that so many have had good success with shimming the Arbor hole, a very viable fix in my opinion.

colin1230, what is the build dates of the "correct " revolvers? Got pictures? How did you determine they weren't short?
I have worked on many brand new 22's and 23's
I've not found any new ones correct. Probably the closest one was 2 /3 weeks ago. A particular Colt 2nd gen that was barely short. Too short to make a normal spacer as it would be too thin to offer any meaningful "structure". So, I had to shorten the arbor more to make a suitable spacer. This revolver was one of 7 2nd Gen Colt revolvers ( same customer) in my shop recently.

Anyway, I find it hard to believe that Uberti will ever correct there setup . . . it'd be awesome to me but they don't seem to have the mindset to do that.

Mike

 

[45D]

Hey, Mike. You told me my 1860’s arbor was surprisingly the correct length. Is that super rare? I’ve certainly had no problems. Maybe I just got lucky.

I remember telling you that but don't remember details. Got pictures? It would be the ONLY non Pietta one that was correct!!

Mike