1861 Springfield Nipple Replacement

[cschibi]

Hey Guys,

I recently purchased some 8X1MM No#11 replacement nipples from "Track of the Wolf" for my ArmiSport 1861 Springfield musket. My objective was to make it more feasible to purchase No# 11 caps than for the original and frankly harder to find or more expensive musket caps.

After receiving the new nipples, I realized they are not screwing in as easily as the originals. I am afraid to force it as I don't want to damage the threads in the event that these don't really fit. According to the "Track of the Wolf website" these should be the right replacement nipples. 8X1MM Metric for this ArmiSport .58 Cal 1861 Springfield.

Any advice would be appreciated!

Sincerely,

Chris

 

[Drago]

Maybe take both to a hardware store to compare the thread size?

 

[ihuntsnook]

I ordered the metric nipples from TOW because it said they fit the Colt musket I have. Not so. I returned them and ordered the 5/16 24s for the regular Springfield musket and they fit.

 

[mb3]

Hey Guys,

I recently purchased some 8X1MM No#11 replacement nipples from "Track of the Wolf" for my ArmiSport 1861 Springfield musket. My objective was to make it more feasible to purchase No# 11 caps than for the original and frankly harder to find or more expensive musket caps.

After receiving the new nipples, I realized they are not screwing in as easily as the originals. I am afraid to force it as I don't want to damage the threads in the event that these don't really fit. According to the "Track of the Wolf website" these should be the right replacement nipples. 8X1MM Metric for this ArmiSport .58 Cal 1861 Springfield.

Any advice would be appreciated!

Sincerely,

Chris

I use the 5/16 x 24 nipple in my Richmond and in my Zoli. I have read where Italian muskets use the 8mm nipples but, I have not seen one yet that uses the 8mm nipple. Maybe the Euro Arms muskets?

 

[Zonie]

The Dixie Gunworks catalog shows almost all of the Italian made Rifled Muskets except the Parker-Hale guns using a 8mm X 1mm nipple.

The Dixie catalog also says the Parker-Hale guns use a 5/16-20 nipple. This is either a missprint or its a non standard thread because the course thread for a 5/16" thread is 18 threads per inch.

The fine pitch thread for a 5/16" thread has 24 threads per inch.

If I convert a 8mm X 1mm thread into a inch thread equivalent it would be a .315-25.4.

Note that the diameter of .315 is only .0025 larger than the 5/16" equivalent of .3125 diameter which would make a 8mm thread a very tight fit in a 5/16" hole.


Because the threads are quite close but not the same I think the original nipple should be taken to a automotive parts store or a good hardware store and have them measure the threads.
Also, after they have measured it, try screwing it with finger pressure into a nut to make sure they didn't goof up their diagnosis.

Edited extensively to remove comparison of a 8mm X 1 thread with a non existent 5/16-20 thread.

 

[ihuntsnook]

From personal experience, the Track of the Wolf musket nipple information is just wrong. I ordered metric nipples for my Colt Signature musket because that's what the online catalogue said fit. They did not. 5/16 24 worked.

 

[cschibi]

Thank you Ihuntsnook and Zonie...and all that replied!

You guys are awesome. You provide credible advise that will help a newbee like myself navigate my way through this unfortunate delima.

One way or another... I will figure this out with your support. This is just too much fun...to give up.

BTW... glad I found this forum. Thanks TMF...
:slap: :slap: :slap:
-CS

 

[cschibi]

Ihuntsnook

Dude, I thought your solution might be a solution for me as well. I just received my 5/16-24 No# 11 nipples from TOW today with great anticipation...and "herrrrreeeesss johnny..." they don't fit either.

I am loosing my resolve...here. I am concluding that for these ArmiSport 1861 Springfields there is no "No #11 Nipple" replacement that will fit these factory threads. 8X1MM or 5/16-24. So now.. I have a planned range date this weekend so I can shoot this for the 1st time with no "Musket Caps". BTW... The outlets that offer non-CCI or full charge RWS Musket Caps are all backordered. I was able to find the right size Minie Balls i.e. .577s NOT .585s as the owners manual suggests.

Schucks..... I am so willing to pay someone who has a few RWS Musket Caps just for the opportunity to shoot my musket for the first time....I am so disappointed that this has become so complicated after what has become a $1200 spend.

I am bummed out....Thanks for all your support.

Respectively,

Chris

 

[Zonie]

Are you using a wrench or just your fingers to install the new nipples?

While most threads can be assembled using only light finger pressure, others do require the use of a wrench to get them fully installed.

Because it is slightly smaller I would start with the 5/16-24 threaded nipple.
You should be able to start the nipple into the hole using just your finger pressure to get at least 1 to 1 1/2 turns.

If you can get it that far, then use (probably) a 1/4" open end wrench (or a Musket Nipple Wrench which is quite a bit larger than the common rifle nipple wrench) on the nipple flats to screw the nipple the rest of the way in.

The first few turns with the wrench may show some resistance but it should turn fairly easily.
Kinda like you would expect when driving a wood screw into a pre-drilled hole in a pine board.

Now we get to the how much force question and over the internet it's not easy to answer.

I'd say it's OK to feel some drag while using the wrench. Maybe 1 to 2 pounds of torque should do it.

If the nipple really tightens up so you would have to apply 5 or more pounds of force, stop. Something is defiantly wrong.

 

[cschibi]

Thanks Zonie.

Just using fingers thus far. They screw ~3/4 turn then tighten up.

I will try your suggestion cautiously!

 

[mb3]

Are you using a wrench or just your fingers to install the new nipples?

While most threads can be assembled using only light finger pressure, others do require the use of a wrench to get them fully installed.

Because it is slightly smaller I would start with the 5/16-24 threaded nipple.
You should be able to start the nipple into the hole using just your finger pressure to get at least 1 to 1 1/2 turns.

If you can get it that far, then use (probably) a 1/4" open end wrench (or a Musket Nipple Wrench which is quite a bit larger than the common rifle nipple wrench) on the nipple flats to screw the nipple the rest of the way in.

The first few turns with the wrench may show some resistance but it should turn fairly easily.
Kinda like you would expect when driving a wood screw into a pre-drilled hole in a pine board.

Now we get to the how much force question and over the internet it's not easy to answer.

I'd say it's OK to feel some drag while using the wrench. Maybe 1 to 2 pounds of torque should do it.

If the nipple really tightens up so you would have to apply 5 or more pounds of force, stop. Something is defiantly wrong.

If your 1861 is the same as my Armi Sports CS Richmond the 5/16 x 24 should go(afaik they are the same rifles with different stampings). They may take a little english to get them on but not much. I use a nupple wrench to tighten them down as they go on snug.

 

[mb3]

Not trying to muddy the waters but, I was reading a Dixie Gunworks flier and they showed their Armisports 1861 as taking a 8x1mm nipple, and the Armisports CS Richmond as using the 5/16x24 nipple. So while they share many common parts nipples may not be one. I love my Richmond (built in 2009)she shoots well but, I went through pretty much the same issues you are when selecting a replacement nipple. I have settled on the 5/16x24 Spitfire Magnum nipple for my Richmond. It fits better (on my gun) then other replacemnt nipples I have tried. Dont get discouraged, somewhere there is a nipple out there for you.

 

[ihuntsnook]

Does anyone know if there is any other size nipple that fits a Springfield type musket other than the two sizes mentioned?

 

[rmark]

I would suggest ordering a 5/16 x 20 nipple from Dixie (#np1480 steel)- this is a size commonly used on longarms sold by Dixie (and maybe only available from Dixie) and some older Parker Hale muskets.

5/16 x 20 is ALMOST the same as 8mm x 1.25.


http://www.boltdepot.com/Newsletter/Newsletter-2006-04.html

Strange sizes - 5/16-20 and 1/4-24?!?
It’s happened to the best of us. Your project is in pieces and you need a replacement screw. It looks like a 5/16ths screw but it has 20 threads per inch. That’s not a standard size and you are starting to wonder if you will ever be able to find a replacement and get your project back together again. Don’t worry, 8mm metric screws are almost indistinguishable from 5/16ths and the standard 1.5 pitch is almost exactly 20 threads per inch. So if it looks like 5/16-20 it’s actually metric 8mm x 1.25.

 

[rmark]

I have a 5/16 x 20 Italian Parker Hale I use 8 x 1.25 nipples from Track of the Wolf on. Easier availability and a flush nipple I couldn't get otherwise.

 

[Zonie]

As I think I mentioned before, a 5/16-20 thread would not be a standard thread.
The standard 5/16 inch threads in the US are 5/16-18 (Unified National Course) and 5/16-24 (Unified National Fine).

There is a 5/16-20 thread and it is defined in the UN (Unified National) standard but it would be difficult to find in common usage.

The 8 X 1.25 is a standard metric course thread and would be equal to a .315-20.3 (threads per inch).

 

[rmark]

I agree, it's not standard, but its a nipple size Dixie has used for years in their longarms. I think they are the only source for 5/16 x 20 nipples.

 

[cschibi]

Okay, here is the latest on my perplexing nipple delima.

The 8X1MM replacement nipples I ordered from Taylor & Co would not screw in with finger pressure only. That bothered me... I didn't want to force it so I kept searching. I found on Dixie Gun Works they had stainless 8X1MM nipples with varying hole size (i.e. small & large) and Steel. For S***S and giggles I ordered all three and ordered the 5/16-20 nipple, hey money is no object... :hmm: . (I know, process of elimination is expensive). Here are my expensive results.

The 5/16-20 did not work... "As Zonie predicted" :wink:

All three of the 8x1mm nipples screwed in perfectly with finger pressure only. BINGO.... thats what I was looking for! So, my conclusions (after my rant) is that not all nipples of the same specification are equal... None of the Taylor and Co nipples fit my ArmiSport 1861 Springfield. My Dixie 8X1MM Nipples all fit. So my delima is over. Well almost....Dixie only offers Musket Nipples so I have yet to find a No#11 8X1MM replacement that fits... I feel like King Arther searhing for the challis... :grin:

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in on this. I hope my experience helps the next guy or gal...

 

[Zonie]

Threads come in different classes of fits.
These fit classes are represented by the number at the end of a thread size. This number isn't commonly called out but when it is it looks like this:
5/16-18UNC-2B

There is a really loose class 1 that almost no one uses.

The common class is class 2. Then there is a class 3 thread that can be a 'line to line' fit between the male and female thread.

It sounds like the Taylor & Co threads are the tighter class.

They can be screwed into any of the other class threads without damaging anything but it often takes a little torque on a wrench.

In this case, I think your being overcautious. Just make sure the tight nipple is being started straight and screwed in with finger pressure as far as possible before using the wrench.

When using the wrench a force of a few pounds is OK. A force of 5-10 pounds says something is wrong.

 

[cschibi]

Mr. Zonie,

Respectively, I have a question here, If i have a choice between using nipples that require wrenching (+/- ~pounds of pressure) of a nipple wrench versus a nipple that can be easily screwed in via finger pressure... I am assuming I should choose the later?

I truly appreciate your perspective and advice here and I value you're opinion based on the science and experience you offer..

Am I not getting this?