1861 Springfield not igniting powder

[Jaegermeister]

If water pours out of the cone when water is poured down the barrel I don’t understand why fire won’t reach the powder charge. Makes no sense to me. If you point the muzzle at a leaf on the ground and pop a cap, does the leaf move?

 

[Winters]

Hey all, I ended up taking the nipple off, followed by the screw next to the nipple (on the nipple hole). I took a toothpick through that hole again and in the hole that led into the actual barrel. I didn't get much out - just a little bit of gunk on the very end of the toothpick. I guess that very very small piece of gunk was enough to keep the powder from igniting because I was able to finally get it to work after that. Phew!

It's interesting how despite my seemingly detailed cleaning, there was still something that needed to be cleaned. I am relatively new to black powder, but I am enjoying it thoroughly.

And don't worry, it wasn't loaded - I made sure of that before I tried anything.

 

[Jaegermeister]

Happy ending! Congratulations to you.

 

[bang]

I use a hose on the nipple and a tight patch to draw and push soapy water through the flash path. Works well.

 

[dave951]

CCI garbage is ALL that is available. It's either use them or figure out how to make a BIC lighter work.

Not so. Plenty of Schutzen available. Same with powder. You have to be willing to order more than one tin of caps and one pound of powder at the time.

Accuracy? I just want the S.O.B. to fire!

Your 25yd is a good start. Let's see 50 and further. That's where the issue with CCI garbage musket caps and an enlarged nipple will show up. The enlarged nipple causes a loss of pressure in the barrel and can eventually lead to the hammer being blown back to half or full ****. Not good. You want the nipple hole to be as small as possible to get good ignition and no larger. The act of shooting will erode it larger.

Edit: I don't shoot competition, I gave it up back in 1982. I was shooting IMSA steel silhouette (unmentionable firearms although it was a Thompson Center) and it got to the point it was no fun anymore. I was never that good at it anyway. I enjoy watching people that are willing to devote that much time to something, they are true artists. Ever seen someone hit a full sized steel ram at 200 meters, off hand, open sight pistol? And hit it 10 for 10? It's a sight to behold. I never got close to being that good. It looks like you are one hell of a shot, I really admire that. Anyway, enjoy your shooting, I sure as hell enjoy mine.

It's IHMSA and I used to shoot in Production with a tuned T/C. In 8 matches I broke out a number of times and was shooting in INT class when I quit. And yes, I could hit a 200m ram 10 for 10 back then when the vision was 20/10 and the hands were steady. Ironically, the turkeys are the harder target than the rams. I now shoot North South Skirmish Association with Civil War arms like the one the OP is having issues with. Not only am I a competitor, I'm also a certified instructor in muzzleloading and there aren't many of us. When I hear of problems like the OP is having, I have to ask who had the gun prior and how was it cared for. At no point in this discussion was it determined that the gun was unloaded. There are a number of cases from the Civil War where soldiers loaded multiples. I've heard of it happening with inexperienced black powder shooters who don't use good safety technique.

 

[dave951]

Hey all, I ended up taking the nipple off, followed by the screw next to the nipple (on the nipple hole). I took a toothpick through that hole again and in the hole that led into the actual barrel. I didn't get much out - just a little bit of gunk on the very end of the toothpick. I guess that very very small piece of gunk was enough to keep the powder from igniting because I was able to finally get it to work after that. Phew!

It's interesting how despite my seemingly detailed cleaning, there was still something that needed to be cleaned. I am relatively new to black powder, but I am enjoying it thoroughly.

And don't worry, it wasn't loaded - I made sure of that before I tried anything.

Good that you got it sorted. There are basics to getting minies to shoot. We've hashed it over multiple times. Let us know how you do. The Pedersoli is a quality musket.

 

[JamesA]

Not so. Plenty of Schutzen available. Same with powder. You have to be willing to order more than one tin of caps and one pound of powder at the time.



Your 25yd is a good start. Let's see 50 and further. That's where the issue with CCI garbage musket caps and an enlarged nipple will show up. The enlarged nipple causes a loss of pressure in the barrel and can eventually lead to the hammer being blown back to half or full ****. Not good. You want the nipple hole to be as small as possible to get good ignition and no larger. The act of shooting will erode it larger.




I used to shoot in Production with a tuned T/C. In 8 matches I broke out a number of times and was shooting in INT class when I quit. And yes, I could hit a 200m ram 10 for 10 back then when the vision was 20/10 and the hands were steady. Ironically, the turkeys are the harder target than the rams. I now shoot North South Skirmish Association with Civil War arms like the one the OP is having issues with. Not only am I a competitor, I'm also a certified instructor in muzzleloading and there aren't many of us. When I hear of problems like the OP is having, I have to ask who had the gun prior and how was it cared for. At no point in this discussion was it determined that the gun was unloaded. There are a number of cases from the Civil War where soldiers loaded multiples. I've heard of it happening with inexperienced black powder shooters who don't use good safety technique.

You're right, it's IHMSA. As I've gotten older, I forget all sorts of things like an occasional letter. Did you know any of the early founders? Elgin Gates, Gary Riley, Jon Shaver, or Bert Stringfellow? The best I ever did was a state wide competition in California, at the Fresno Pistol and Rifle Club, shot AA with a three five seven. T/C., got 52 out of 60 shooting from the Creedmore position. I got a pat on the back. Best shooting I ever did. You are correct, the turkeys were an S.O.B. to hit. Tall and narrow. I used to like to spot for other shooters and in the right weather conditions, you could follow the bullet all the way to the target. Really fun. Here in the Boise/Meridian/Nampa/Caldwell area in Idaho, out of all the sporting goods stores (Cabela's, Sportsman's Warehouse, Cliff's, Larry's, etc.) the only shop that had any percussion caps was Cliff's and those were CCI musket caps. I wish it was different. I notice most online outlets don't have anything either. You say the powder and caps are available. From who? I am registered at Midaway USA and MidSouth Shooter's Supply. I'm not familiar with others but I know they are out there.

I enlarged the hole in the musket nipple to exactly the same diameter as in the original #11 percussion cap nipple that came with the rifle. I wouldn't think that would be a problem. I am aware of the blowback, that's why I didn't take it out any larger. Well, if it wrecks the nipple, it wilI be a lesson learned. I really enjoy black powder and my Hawken, I never owned one before. Back in the early 80's, I put together a CVA Pennsylvania .45 caliber rifle and shot it for years. I had access to some really 'hot' percussion caps back then, 1981 to 1990, and no problem with any grade black powder. My son has it now and he actually goes squirrel hunting with it. It really aggrevates his buddies, he's a better shot with it than they are with their unmentionables. Right now we are enveloped by smoke from several forest fires, the AQI is 147, visibility is maybe 2 or 3 miles. It really sucks just to go outside.

Great talking to you and learning something new. Take care, have a great evening.

 

[JamesA]

Hey all, I ended up taking the nipple off, followed by the screw next to the nipple (on the nipple hole). I took a toothpick through that hole again and in the hole that led into the actual barrel. I didn't get much out - just a little bit of gunk on the very end of the toothpick. I guess that very very small piece of gunk was enough to keep the powder from igniting because I was able to finally get it to work after that. Phew!

It's interesting how despite my seemingly detailed cleaning, there was still something that needed to be cleaned. I am relatively new to black powder, but I am enjoying it thoroughly.

And don't worry, it wasn't loaded - I made sure of that before I tried anything.

Awesome!

 

[toot]

Well, my Pedersoli Hawken has a very similar problem. Musket percussion caps are for "displays", reenactments, parades, etc. or so they tell me. The original nipple on my Hawken had an .035 dia. hole. The musket nipple was quite a bit smaller, .027, so I opened it up to what the original dia in the Hawken nipple is. I cannot guarantee this will make a difference, I haven't been out to the range to try it yet. Then, another trick, time consuming and a lot of monkey motion (pain in the a$$) and I've been doing it for a while, take the screw out of the drum and trickle a little BP in there, kind of like a flintlock. Don't go crazy, just enough to ignite the powder in the chamber. If you have a nipple pick, make sure you have an open flash channel to the chamber. Close her all up and bingo, it should fire. I am sure I will be critisized for it but it works while we cannot get #11 caps and REAL black powder. BTW, I use Pyrodex P (FFFg). I would prefer to do it the right way but I need that BOOM and the smoke, anemic as it is with pyrodex. 70 gr. P (FFFg), patched round ball .495, patch thickness .010. It works.


View attachment 85005

5 shot group, 25 yards, bench rest with the above mentioned load.

NICE!!!

 

[toot]

remove the nipple and put a pinch of 4fg, under it and put it back in.

 

[Erwan]

remove the nipple and put a pinch of 4fg, under it and put it back in.

That is an excellent solution always used with recalcitrant departures to put off all that could be everything without risk, also oily powder making a "Champagne cork" too...
Don't forget the cap after putting the nipple back...

 

[Grenadier1758]

Back in post #5 the question of being loaded was answered as water came out of the nipple during cleaning.

Oh gotcha - yes, water came through the nipple when I put water down the barrel. Yes, the nipple was dry before and after I cleaned it.

There still could be an obstruction in the flash channel that acts like a valve to let water poured down the barrel flow out of the nipple but close up when the cap is fired. Metal shavings that were never removed from the flash channel can do that.

 

[Slip6]

You're right, it's IHMSA. As I've gotten older, I forget all sorts of things like an occasional letter. Did you know any of the early founders? Elgin Gates, Gary Riley, Jon Shaver, or Bert Stringfellow? The best I ever did was a state wide competition in California, at the Fresno Pistol and Rifle Club, shot AA with a three five seven. T/C., got 52 out of 60 shooting from the Creedmore position. I got a pat on the back. Best shooting I ever did. You are correct, the turkeys were an S.O.B. to hit. Tall and narrow. I used to like to spot for other shooters and in the right weather conditions, you could follow the bullet all the way to the target. Really fun. Here in the Boise/Meridian/Nampa/Caldwell area in Idaho, out of all the sporting goods stores (Cabela's, Sportsman's Warehouse, Cliff's, Larry's, etc.) the only shop that had any percussion caps was Cliff's and those were CCI musket caps. I wish it was different. I notice most online outlets don't have anything either. You say the powder and caps are available. From who? I am registered at Midaway USA and MidSouth Shooter's Supply. I'm not familiar with others but I know they are out there.

I enlarged the hole in the musket nipple to exactly the same diameter as in the original #11 percussion cap nipple that came with the rifle. I wouldn't think that would be a problem. I am aware of the blowback, that's why I didn't take it out any larger. Well, if it wrecks the nipple, it wilI be a lesson learned. I really enjoy black powder and my Hawken, I never owned one before. Back in the early 80's, I put together a CVA Pennsylvania .45 caliber rifle and shot it for years. I had access to some really 'hot' percussion caps back then, 1981 to 1990, and no problem with any grade black powder. My son has it now and he actually goes squirrel hunting with it. It really aggrevates his buddies, he's a better shot with it than they are with their unmentionables. Right now we are enveloped by smoke from several forest fires, the AQI is 147, visibility is maybe 2 or 3 miles. It really sucks just to go outside.

Great talking to you and learning something new. Take care, have a great evening.

Graf & sons

 

[ML48]

There was a guy on frontiermuzzleloader.com selling 5,000 #11 percussion caps in 100 cap container, brand new for $6.75/per 100 cap container. I asked if he shipped and never got a reply. I guess everyone is preparing for a revolution with smoke poles.

Folks I was wrong. The guy was on this forum. Contact "Brokenbear".

 

[springfield art]

Hey all,

I recently picked up a Pedersoli 1861 Springfield. Used but in great condition. While my ammunition for it has not come in yet, I ordered some Schuetzen Musket Caps and decided I would try them out. After using 3 caps to clear out any gunk that may have been in the nipple, I loaded up the rifle with 60g of Goex FFG, slapped a cap on there, and pulled the trigger. Unfortunately, it did not ignite the powder. I tried two more times before doing a full disassemble and cleaning of the gun. After that, I tried the same thing but to no avail.

What am I doing wrong here?

The no-longer available Miroku 1861's had a flash channel much more like the Originals; a more direct way for the 'flash' to get to the powder. Replicas like the Pedersoli, etc., have a more convoluted flash channel, resulting in more mis-fires. Probably made that way due to manufacturing costs.

 

[Gregory Mitchell]

I've never had any significant ignition issues with my Pedersoli 3-band P53 Enfield, (using either CCI or Scheutzen 4-wing caps) but my new (and beautiful!!) Pedersoli Zouave is a different story -- LOTS of ignition problems with that one, regardless of cap brand. Scheutzen caps fit much tighter on the nipple and seem to take one hammer strike to seat them fully, then BANG on the second strike. The CCI caps are easier to seat on the cone and generally fire first strike, but often fail to ignite the charge. On close examination it looks like my hammer face is hitting the cone a bit off-center -- not hitting the musket caps squarely over their whole circumference. I'm sure this contributes to my ignition difficulties with the Zouave, and I have NO idea how to fix that. Torch and gently bend the hammer arm until the face hits the caps/cone squarely?? Hmmm . . . not sure I want to risk that.

On the bright side, the Zouave is a wonderful shooter -- when it fires reliably.

 

[ML48]

I've never had any significant ignition issues with my Pedersoli 3-band P53 Enfield, (using either CCI or Scheutzen 4-wing caps) but my new (and beautiful!!) Pedersoli Zouave is a different story -- LOTS of ignition problems with that one, regardless of cap brand. Scheutzen caps fit much tighter on the nipple and seem to take one hammer strike to seat them fully, then BANG on the second strike. The CCI caps are easier to seat on the cone and generally fire first strike, but often fail to ignite the charge. On close examination it looks like my hammer face is hitting the cone a bit off-center -- not hitting the musket caps squarely over their whole circumference. I'm sure this contributes to my ignition difficulties with the Zouave, and I have NO idea how to fix that. Torch and gently bend the hammer arm until the face hits the caps/cone squarely?? Hmmm . . . not sure I want to risk that.

On the bright side, the Zouave is a wonderful shooter -- when it fires reliably.

Like you I have not had any problems with #11 CCI caps. They go off & ignite powder charge.

 

[Rudy Thompson]

This may or may not apply here but I have a "63 springfield (reproduction) that was bad to miss fire . I removed the cone and took my Dremel with a good burr and ported and polished the inside so to smooth the fire path to the bore , never had another miss fire after that.

 

[springfield art]

remove the nipple and put a pinch of 4fg, under it and put it back in.

Yeah, but who's gonna do that every time? Might as well get a flintlock!

 

[Gregory Mitchell]

Yeah, but who's gonna do that every time? Might as well get a flintlock!

I have to do that very thing for the first several shots out of my Zouave, each outing, to "wake it up" (clear the fire channel). Why the Enfield doesn't usually need this, I don't know.