1861 US Cavalry Carbine ?

[sheriff john]

I think I've bought an 1861 Cavalry carbine. Lock is Norwich dated "63". Barrel proofmarks show "P.Valentine" a sub inspector in 1861. Barrel is 24 inches, appears to be .58 caliber. Saddle ring is original to gun. No provision for sling swivel in trigger guard. Stock has provision for ramrod (missing rod). Rear sight missing, no dovetail provision that I can see. Front sight is gone but a small brass "something" (not a bead) is still there.

I need a link to a photograph in hopes of further identification. Sorry I cannot post a photo, so trying to identify "backwards". Help is greatly appreciated.

 

[TNBandit]

Unless I'm missing something there's no such thing as a Model 1861 Cavalry Carbine. I have a Norwich made Model 1861 Springfield myself although mine is dated 1864 on the lockplate. It's my understanding they were all produced as full length rifles but yours could have been cut down after the war. We really can't do much without pictures.

 

[hawkeye2]

It honestly sounds like a fantasy gun. There were no carbines, cavalry, artillery or any other form built using an 1861 pattern as the basis. I shot an original Norwich contract 61 for years and there were no proofmarks or inspector's names on the barrel other than the ones appearing on all 1861 and 63s. I have never seen a 61 or 63 with an inspector's name on the barrel. It's going to be difficult to find a photo of a gun that didn't exist to help you but it isn't difficult to post photos here. This is a link to a thread on "How To"; I recommend you use method #2 or #3.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/posting-a-picture-on-the-forum.115183/
Here is a link to why you may not see a rear sight dovetail, my post, #20 on the thread

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/civil-war-foraging-shotgun.139876/#post-1959887

 

[sheriff john]

Thanks for the info. Whatever this is, it does have a saddle ring on the left side of the stock which, to me, looks like it has been there since Hooter was a pup. Condition is slightly better than a basket case. There is no "inspector's name" on the barrel, but the inspector's stamp, "PV" , is quite clear and what looks like a tiny "g" on the flat adjacent. PV was a sub inspector in 1861 (whatever that means) and listed as "P.Valentine".

I'm thinking it may be a "Bannerman Special". Anyway, rode hard and put away wet, as a "rare gem" - it's not. Lots of hard use, old repairs to stock, rusty buttplate, and a generous dose of honest patina and old varnish. At least, it's not loaded.

I take it the rear sight was dovetailed on the muskets How was the front sight/bayonet lug attached? Brazed, soldered, dovetailed ?

I've tried to post pictures, but never had any luck. Thanks again.

 

[TNBandit]

Ahh now it makes sense. What you're seeing is the barrel proof marks. It's on all of them. It's not the initials of a particular inspector. The rear sight had a dovetail and a screw.

 

[TNBandit]

Does the saddle ring look like this ? If so that part came off a Springfleid Trapdoor model 1873. Sounds like someone got creative and built a gun that never existed out of a pile of parts.

 

[sheriff john]

Does the saddle ring look like this ? If so that part came off a Springfleid Trapdoor model 1873. Sounds like someone got creative and built a gun that never existed out of a pile of parts.

EXACTLY !!! Thanks. Both you guys have answered my questions. Seller was helping his family dispose of inherited guns. He did not know their origin, nor what they were. I'm trying to do the posting photo thing, but it's probably going to have to wait 'til my daughter gets back to the farm. Military antiquity has never been my passion.

As for this old gun of dubious parentage, with some luck, it'll be safe to shoot, and a conversation piece. We all know of/acquired guns pieced together many years ago - just like some old pickup trucks - that served their intended purpose. Horseback or riding in a buggy, this old-timer'd been really handy. Anyway ..THANK YOU~!

 

[RjSixgun]

Alot of folk say there is no such thing......but there actually was, but it was a confederate cut-down or raised musket. Much like the CS Richmond musketoon. See the confederates would pick up any and all arms left on the battlefields and ship them to arsenals. These arsenals would re-condition them and put them back into service, some had barrels cut to rifle length some had them cut to carbine length. Others were used for parts if the barrel and stock was damaged beyond use.
You can find many "northern" arms cut down to both rifles and carbines.

for reference on this feel free to check out the books on Confederate Rifles & Muskets and Confederate Carbines by John M. Murphy (Author), Howard Michael Madaus (Author)

Oh and there was a Northern made muzzle loading carbine for Calvery use and for Sappers & Minners, the 1847 Springfield Musketoon........most people forget about that one.

 

[hawkeye2]

Confederate repaired and razeed Union arms exist but are scarce and it can be difficult to prove provenance given the numbers that were cut down post war for sale to farmers and military academies as well as those that were cut down "just because" and the outright fakes. It would be wonderful if this one was authentic but I'm not aware of any with saddle rings and it still should have a rear sight. Unfortunately I don't have $550 for the Murphy & Madaus book nor the even more expensive C.S. Armory, Richmond by Davies.

 

[sheriff john]

Alot of folk say there is no such thing......but there actually was, but it was a confederate cut-down or raised musket. Much like the CS Richmond musketoon. See the confederates would pick up any and all arms left on the battlefields and ship them to arsenals. These arsenals would re-condition them and put them back into service, some had barrels cut to rifle length some had them cut to carbine length. Others were used for parts if the barrel and stock was damaged beyond use.
You can find many "northern" arms cut down to both rifles and carbines.

for reference on this feel free to check out the books on Confederate Rifles & Muskets and Confederate Carbines by John M. Murphy (Author), Howard Michael Madaus (Author)

Oh and there was a Northern made muzzle loading carbine for Calvery use and for Sappers & Minners, the 1847 Springfield Musketoon........most people forget about that one.

Thanks. Really didn't know much yesterday, but I'm learning. Trying hard to resist "cleaning" too much. Whatever alterations/substitutions were done were done a very long time ago and part of the history of the gun. Closer exam - barrel band's a blacksmith replacement, but a really good fit to the barrel. Thanks again.

 

[TNBandit]

It's all interesting stuff to me and the alterations done after the war are part of the gun's history. When the war ended soldiers had the option of buying their rifles from the government for $6 and many of them did. They were then converted to more handy lengths for chasing deer through the woods, etc. Some were smooth bored and used as shotguns. Then you have companies like Bannermans who bought huge numbers of them at surplus auctions for pennies and also converted them to hunting rifles and shotguns. I recently picked up a Springfield Model 1842 that had that done to it for the give away price of $160. An unmolested version might be worth 10 times that much.

 

[3 trees]

You are a lucky man to own such a piece of history!

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

There was a cavalry rifle with a saddle ring issued during the Civil War...Spencer repeater, rimfire cartridge....I have one:

 

[hawkeye2]

That Spencer is a carbine and most of the breech loading carbines had saddle rings but I've never known of a modified rifle musket with a saddle ring. Haven't seen it all but I'm still working on that.

 

[TNBandit]

Pictures of what you've got will tell the story. So many possibilities. If it's got an 1863 Norwich lock it's for sure something made up from parts but what parts ? It could be an 1873 Trapdoor Carbine stock with the wrong lock & barrel, A cut down 1861 stock with the saddle ring added, etc. Hard saying without pics.

 

[sheriff john]

Pictures of what you've got will tell the story. So many possibilities. If it's got an 1863 Norwich lock it's for sure something made up from parts but what parts ? It could be an 1873 Trapdoor Carbine stock with the wrong lock & barrel, A cut down 1861 stock with the saddle ring added, etc. Hard saying without pics.

Thanks. After mucho searches looking at various photos, schematics, and truly helpful advice from forum members, TNBandit is correct. Trapdoor carbine stock with 1861 parts - cut down barrel, Norwich lock. I best stick to buying things I know more about.

 

[TNBandit]

Thanks. After mucho searches looking at various photos, schematics, and truly helpful advice from forum members, TNBandit is correct. Trapdoor carbine stock with 1861 parts - cut down barrel, Norwich lock. I best stick to buying things I know more about.

Glad to help. Depending on how much you spent it sounds like a cool conversation piece anyway. Even better if you're able to safely shoot it.

 

[sheriff john]

Another "project" gun to add to the cache, obviously some old-time, old boy's project long before me.

 

[TNBandit]

Another "project" gun to add to the cache, obviously some old-time, old boy's project long before me.

I'm bad like that also. If it were mine it would now be 2 projects. If it's in an unmolested Trapdoor carbine stock those are worth a few bucks. So I'd be searching for a Trapdoor carbine barreled action to drop into it. Then I'd be searching for a nice proper Model 1861 stock and sending the barrel from that gun to Bobby Hoyt to be stretched back to correct length. Of course when finished I'd be in way over what it would have cost to just buy one that's not been messed with...

 

[2 shots]

V = viewed. P = proofed