1992 powder?

[hanshi]

I think if you google people killed while disarming cannon balls,
If they were still around could give you a difinate answer....

Smo is correct. In fact we had a collector killed while handling a CW shell that exploded, fairly recently. It was more than 150 years old! I've used black powder I had kept around for nearly 50 years. Stored in a closed container, it will last about forever.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Black is good and stable for nearly ever. It does go off slower if exposed to damp conditions that it can absorb moisture. Storing it in a dry place will "bring the pep back." I broke down some original shells from 1882 and (Very Unwisely) left it in an open bowl in my shop in a somewhat damp basement in Falls Church VA for a year and then loaded and shot it without any noticeable delay. There was some talk back in the 1970's or 1980's about some powder made without sterilizing the water, that it had some kind of coal eating bacteria in it and would degrade. Apparently much of the original powder was made with water that was boiled in copper kettles and retained a miniscule amount of copper that acted to kill bacteria. This is what I heard from several sources. Have no idea for the story's credibility.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I have some 3F and 4F from the seventies, it works just like my new powder.

 

[AZbpBurner]

In the late 60's-early 70's I had opportunity to shoot a plethora of original flintlocks that an old guy brought out to the range. Usually 5-6 of them, and never the same one twice. He inherited a large collection from family, and decided it was proper to shoot them all from time to time. Many of the rifles had horns of many types, some ornate & some plain; many had the names of the original owners on them. All had "original" powder in them - some because they still held the powder the original owner filled them with, and others the old gent refilled himself from an open cask that was part of the collection. He said it was labeled "Gunpowder" and looked like 3F granulation, although he wasn't too concerned about grain size. He said his casks all predated the Civil War; apparently he had several unopened ones.

Each & every of his rifles using the "old" powder fired first time, every time & there was nothing weak about it. He primed with the same powder & thought it foolish to need a separate priming horn with finer powder.

 

[Bon Sauvage]

Here is a quick break down about black powder: it doesn't.

 

[WVAED]

Thanks guys. I have a lot to learn and appreciate the information so readily accessible on this forum.

 

[necchi]

To All;
So let me get this straight.
No matter what happens to a can of powder in 26yrs or longer,,
The powder inside will be as crisp and clean as the day it was made.(?)
No regard for it sitting in the trunk or back seat of a car on a hot sunny day for an afternoon?
(just once)
It doesn't matter that that same can might have sat in a garage at -30 for a winter in Minn while each day the sunshine came through a window beat on it say for an hour or so as it passed(?)
Nobody tossed the can around as they moved 5 times in 26yrs in the bottom of a tool box,,(just maybe affecting the glazing?)
Nobody has ever gotten to the bottom of the can and found the "shake" that's left down there is a bit different then the rest of the can?
That ALL Black Powder no matter how it's cared for is ALWAYS in pristine condition?

I think that many of our seasoned BP shooters here have experienced a lot of that,, and because of our experience with those kinds of conditions we "know" what to expect and what to do to "help" the powder preform with the loads we're using.

I'll offer support to the many here that say each individual component of Black powder are/is unaffected by many of the conditions of storage or environment they may be subject to. Or at least survive the random extremes and be usable.
Yet Black Powder is a compound of three ingredients that go through a specific process to make it what it is.
KNO3 is water soluble, S changes with heat, C and or the "charcoal" element is a random variable that is even today discussed as a major controller of the resulting BP compounds performance.
While I do relish the stories about how well old powder works,, making blanket statements that powder can't go bad is simply wrong and spreading a myth.

 

[AZbpBurner]

To All;
So let me get this straight.
No matter what happens to a can of powder in 26yrs or longer,,
The powder inside will be as crisp and clean as the day it was made.(?)
No regard for it sitting in the trunk or back seat of a car on a hot sunny day for an afternoon?
(just once)
It doesn't matter that that same can might have sat in a garage at -30 for a winter in Minn while each day the sunshine came through a window beat on it say for an hour or so as it passed(?)
Nobody tossed the can around as they moved 5 times in 26yrs in the bottom of a tool box,,(just maybe affecting the glazing?)
Nobody has ever gotten to the bottom of the can and found the "shake" that's left down there is a bit different then the rest of the can?
That ALL Black Powder no matter how it's cared for is ALWAYS in pristine condition?

I think that many of our seasoned BP shooters here have experienced a lot of that,, and because of our experience with those kinds of conditions we "know" what to expect and what to do to "help" the powder preform with the loads we're using.

I'll offer support to the many here that say each individual component of Black powder are/is unaffected by many of the conditions of storage or environment they may be subject to. Or at least survive the random extremes and be usable.
Yet Black Powder is a compound of three ingredients that go through a specific process to make it what it is.
KNO3 is water soluble, S changes with heat, C and or the "charcoal" element is a random variable that is even today discussed as a major controller of the resulting BP compounds performance.
While I do relish the stories about how well old powder works,, making blanket statements that powder can't go bad is simply wrong and spreading a myth.

Weeeeeelll ... We've just read of the great or at least usable performance of "old" BP, from a dozen to over 170 years old. Sounds like plenty of folks regard their old BP performance as 'age-defying'.

It's now on you to gather up a bunch'a opposing argument, telling of how their BP aged, degraded or otherwise went bad and became unusable.

 

[necchi]

or at least usable performance of "old" BP,
It's now on you to gather up a bunch'a opposing argument, telling of how their BP aged, degraded or otherwise went bad and became unusable.

I never said powder can't stay stable, or at least as I referred to earlier is it can remain "viable",
What I said was powder can degrade and that to infer it can't is wrong. You even make that statement as I underlined.
One man (or 100) saying "my 170yr old powder is still good", doesn't mean all 170yr old powder is still good and will remain so.

 

[desi23]

I think the key point about old powder deteriorating or not revolves around one thing: moisture absorption. If the container is reasonably air tight it keeps moisture out, even if the powder inside were roughly handled enough to break down the grain size or affect the glazing if the moisture is kept out it remains potent. If moisture gets to it over time it can reduce the power of the powder or eventually make it unusable.

If you do much reading on powder production and use in the old days you will find many references to powder going bad, manufacturers having to re-process powder due to moisture damage and so on. Remember that for many years the most common storage system was wooden barrels and crates, a good system but not reliably air tight if stored in extremely damp, humid conditions or when used in the field. The invention of the simple metal can, solder sealed at top and bottom and with a tight fitting, screwed on lid was a huge step forward to keep powder sound.

Those old Civil War cannon shells can be quite dangerous because they were sealed well enough to keep the moisture out and the powder sound. Black powder is a simple mechanical mixture, very durable, but it can be affected by bad storage conditions if the container lets moisture get to the powder.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

As you say, Desi.

The only powder I have had that went sour on me, was some left in a powder flask out in the shed, and it took on moisture and lost a lot of calories.
I still have some that we bought about 35 years ago and it seems to work as well as ever.
I think the main thing, is that black powder is somewhat inefficient, and therefore very forgiving. Even if it's not exactly as it was when brand new, it still works and that's what matters.

All the best,
Richard.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I have taken older suspect powder, put it on a piece of paper and put it in my bow wood drying box set at 90 degrees for a few days then put it back in the can.

 

[Rifleman1776]

In fact we had a collector killed while handling a CW shell that exploded

At the last gun show in town there was an experienced collector/trader with a 'hot' CW cannon ball. I pointed out to him what he had but he was not impressed. I went to the other side of the building.

 

[jfaldo]

Not black powder but I have few cans of smokeless that are from the late 60's early 70's that produce some of the best shooting loads in one of my wife's rifles. Point is that smokeless is way more susceptible to deterioration due to age and if it can last this long if stored properly black powder stored correctly should be good for a whole lot longer.

Edmelot, this will be of special interest to you. This powder I do believe came from Banovs in downtown Wheeling and I got it from my grandfathers estate who lived in Martins Ferry. I've had it for well over twenty years when I still lived on the other side of the river from you.

 

[WVAED]

Thanks buddy.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

for 20 years I traveled all over the mid atlantic to matches with my muzzle loaders. I left the cans of powder in hot car trunks, cold car trunks, during bumpy rides down back roads, etc. Cans of powder were left in an uninsulated attic that was subject to rather extreme heat in summer and minus temps in winter. In fact, when my house and shop burned, I found two cans of powder in the ashes, that had been refilled from a bulk powder buy 15 years earlier and I am currently using that powder. It never burned even though the white paint on the cans was starting to turn brown from the heat.

So except for dampness, like a wooden cask stored in bilge water in the hold of a ship, I'd want to see some documentation about black powder degrading. I read about government inspectors rejecting new made powder that did not meet inspection tests, but that was more likely a flaw in the process than degradation. In fact some of the old ballistic pendulum tests I read seem to indicate 1840's powder may have had a bit more oomph than some modern day powders.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Very good post Zimmer.

The Gov't tests were to determine if the powder would imbibe moisture from the atmosphere. This was done by leaving the doors of the magazine open for a certain period, then weighing, (If I remember right!) the powder afterwards. It was left uncovered for a few days and nights at any rate.

Re old powder being stronger, a V good old friend's G -G -grandfather was the Curtis of Curtis' and Harveys, and has no doubts about powder being stronger when manufactured in the 1800's. I do not remember the details, but could contact him if needed.

Another old pal had some ancient 12 -bore cartridges loaded with black. In these, the black powder had set into a solid lump. He opened up these cases, extracted the black, broke it up, reloaded it and it worked as well as ever.

Re. heat affecting powder;
I Recall Col. Geo Hanger recommending before travelling, to 'cook' your pistols on a muffin tray before a fire, and pick the touchholes, fresh prime, and the pistols (though loaded for a long period,) would go off better than new loaded.

Lastly;
Col. Peter Hawker recommended warming your powder before filling your flasks with it, on plates, "Too hot to hold". Pouring from one plate to another until thoroughly hot.
He also says to not do this in front of the fire where a spark may cause havoc!
Maybe it is well to remember that these gents were living in a somewhat damper climate than certain areas of the US.

Richard.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Eric,
Sorry I missed your post.
Yes, if suspect put it to dry and Bob's your uncle.
Sometimes if I've left a flask outside, just drop it on a heat register for a while and it works as well as ever.

 

[desi23]

Zimmerstutzen, your post illustrates the value of the metal can as a storage device (durable and does a good job of keeping moisture out) and even surviving heat exposure from a fire (that must have sucked, have been involved in enough post fire cleanups to know how a fire can really mess things up). I have a number of older cans of black powder and have never seen any evidence of age deterioration either.

Now I do have a can of Goex 2F that was given to me and it has at some time suffered moisture damage. Rust inside the can, powder was clumped. I broke up the clumps and spread the powder out on a serving tray in the sun. It shoots but seems dirtier and less powerful than powder that wasn't damaged.

I don't think there is any real evidence of age deterioration of black powder. Unlike smokeless (which is a chemical mixture) black is a mechanical mix and very durable. The references to powder being returned for rework most often refer to it as "damaged" (occasionally just "failed inspection") and would seem to be caused by moisture, either from actually getting wet or simply absorbing too much moisture over time and losing power (thus failing inspection).

 

[Rifleman1776]

In fact some of the old ballistic pendulum tests I read seem to indicate 1840's powder may have had a bit more oomph than some modern day powders.

For clarification: did you mean 'black powders'?
If so, that is very interesting. I wonder why and why current bp manufactures are not making theirs with "more oomph". :hmm: