1st chain fire

[Eterry]

I saw a brass framed 36 let go all 6 chambers one time. The barrel flew off the frame about 10 feet, the teenager holding it for some minor cuts on his fingers.

I was a teen as well, I know he wasn't measuring the charges, just filling the chambers. No lube was used, he said they didn't use it 130 years ago, ( this was in 1980.)

I've been fortunate not to have a chain fire. It maybe I haven't shot enough.

 

[M. De Land]

Interesting to me as both a percussion Sharps Carbine & Remington / Colt revolver shooter is that in discussing Sharps there is often talk about the convoluted fire path from the nipple to the powder and the problems with ignition of the charge.

The Sharps uses musket caps with plenty of compound and the holes at the bottom of the nipple and the vent that goes directly to the charge are big in comparison to the gap around a revolver nipple that might exist because of loose fitting cap not to mention that it is one or more chambers away from the one that just fired.

I know the chain fires happen in revolvers & caps can be loose or Ill fitting but it sure seems like a crazy journey for the fire to take. I’m not saying it isn’t true but in light of what I hear from the Sharps failure to ignite discussions it’s like two completely different worlds .

On one hand some people can’t get ignition with one musket cap firing after another & some revolver caps That contain a whole lot less compound can ignite a chamber quite a distance away after the fire travels over a random exposed path rather than in a defined, contained channel.

At any rate , I keep the fire path as clean as possible in the Sharps and don’t have ignition problems & I don’t accept loose fitting balls in a revolver and try to use the best fitting cap / nipple combination I have available. The peening of nipples seems pretty straightforward but I have some nipples that fit my larger caps and others that fit my other caps just right. The CCI 10s seem to be too small for any cones I have although I never really gave them an honest test.
Like I said , it’s an interesting topic for me and a somewhat rare problem I can take precautions to prevent particularly good cap/nipple combination & ball fit.
[/QUOTE You need to see a good slow-mo firing of a percussion pistol and I think you will see that there is plenty of fire erupting from the nipple and lighting up the whole recoil shield area. A pinched on cap is not a very good seal at all plus on many revolvers the hammer does not stay down on the spent cap and seal off the nipple after ignition. A weak hammer spring will allow it to blow back and release the pressure to the rear. I think this probably the main cause of chain fire from the rear of the cylinder.

 

[TFoley]

Excellent suggestions No2nd !
We decided my free EIG Navy is an early model, many decades before CNC.
From the looks of the wedge it’s chain fired before, which could be why it was free!
It may not be fixable but it’s another “challenge” ;-)

Give us the date code and we can tell you how old it is.....Roman numbers or a couple of letters in a box.

 

[Red Owl]

Some good points. Thanks for the video. There is definitely a time lapse between the main chamber going off and then the chamber to the left. From watching it, it doesn't seem that loose or poorly fitted caps would be the problem. The idea that reloading with a lot of grease and residue on the end of the cylinder and grains of powder sticking to it- if that is what is being said- that could well cause trouble. It still seems that maybe the ball moved from recoil but if it moved enough to cause an open passage is uncertain. One last idea. The South Sea Islands have a fire starter, a stick fitted into bamboo with tinder/char in the bottom. You give one quick hit and the friction creates an ember. Could a ball move enough to cause enough friction to create an ember? Doesn't seem possible.

 

[flntlokr]

Interesting stratification of “shooters”. Master almost master and wannabe master. Then there’s the rest of use who are only lower class shooters not worthy of any classification.

you have to wonder how the 'master class' folks got there. I would bet that there were more than a few chain fires in their 'forgotten' pasts.

 

[Rfp10000]

Some good points. Thanks for the video.

In the first video, the guy was able to force a chain fire on the first try(?) by using much smaller balls. This was confirmed by Blackie’s experience and his view that this type can set off multiple chambers.
I wonder if there is a video forcing cap chain fires by only capping and firing one cylinder with the other cylinders loaded without caps & maybe without even a nipple just to see if it can be made to happen as easily as the first video with small round balls seems to …

 

[Rfp10000]

you have to wonder how the 'master class' folks got there

Practice , practice , practice … I imagine !

 

[Whughett]

Practice , practice , practice … I imagine !

I’ve been practicing hand guns for 50 years or so. I’ve a friend who thinks practice is just re-enforcing bad habits and sometimes I’m inclined to believe him…… I’ve never had any desire to shoot competitive, I do shoot alongside a friend on a regular basis and if there is a Master Class he is one. I do best with revolvers for some reason.

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

I’ve never had a chain fire… until last Wednesday… had TWO !!
Both with tight fitting #10 caps.
A friend gave me an old EIG ‘51 Navy .36
With .375 balls some would shave a ring of lead, some a crescent some nothing.
After several uneventful loads of 15 gns 3f and cream O wheat I tried 20 gns no filler.
BOOM!! 3 chambers fired, top and 2 to the right. A cap drew blood from my trigger finger.
Next I used same load with lubed felteads over powder and let the friend who gave me the pistol shoot it. BOOM!! Same 3 chambers, same cut on his trigger finger.
I always assumed caps were the culprit but now I’m convinced 90 percent of chain fires come at the chamber mouth.
The consensus of the club is that there was a LOT of fire/ heat at the front of the cylinder and there’s a big gap which allowed that heat to set off the powder right behind the adjacent ball if not sealed tightly, like a flintlock fires from the heat in the pan.
This gun needs a LOT of tweaking. There’s way too big a gap between cylinder and barrel. Someone has filed the wedge slot so wide it’s unsafe.
I’ll make a new wedge and set the gap to spec.
Has anyone ever seen a brass hand? I can’t imagine it will last long, I’ll be replacing that soon.
Like Grenadier, I’ll be using .380” balls from now on… probably grease over them too!
Not something I want to repeat!!

I would imagine that good old O-1 (oil-hardening steel) would be a LOT better hand than one made of brass.
Cut, file, drill a proper thickness hand from O-1. Using a MAPP torch, heat it to glowing red, quench in oil. I use regular 30-weight motor oil. Following that, heat in an oven, 400* F, for one hour, turn off the oven and let it cool naturally. You now have a properly hardened and tempered hand, which should last longer than we will.

 

[JamesA]

Has anyone used the nipples sized for #11 caps on their revolvers? I can find 11’s the 10’s not common around me.

Check with Track of the Wolf.

 

[BadDaditood]

Give us the date code and we can tell you how old it is.....Roman numbers or a couple of letters in a box.

Here’s some pics TFoley, thanx!
Thanx Wildcat, my plan was to make a new hand if none in my parts bin fit however it’s entirely possible that this hand is beryllium/copper, it appears to have minimal wear… I’ll know more after tomorrow’s range session. I was also going to change nipples to fit 11s, like I’ve done on all my other pistols. 10s are hard to find so I keep a couple tins for visitors to the club and beginners so a lack of caps won’t ruin their day. But all that only if this paperweight is worth fixing, right now I need to bang out a wedge that will tighten the cylinder gap.
Also the arbor is threaded but not cross pinned, another hint that it’s early production?

 

[TFoley]

XV = 1959. VERY early!

 

[TFoley]

In the first video, the guy was able to force a chain fire on the first try...

'Forcing' a chain-fire is usually carried out by a person more famous for the old saying 'here, hold my beer'.

 

[toot]

is a multable firing of multable chambers, the same thing?

 

[Red Owl]

we had this conversation several years ago. This guy loaded up the chambers and put the cylinder flat on a table or bench and left the nipples uncapped. He took a propane torch and made a quick pass over the nipple area and they all went off. IMHO chain fires can happen at either end.

 

[TFoley]

is a multable firing of multable chambers, the same thing?

Yes.

 

[TFoley]

we had this conversation several years ago. This guy loaded up the chambers and put the cylinder flat on a table or bench and left the nipples uncapped. He took a propane torch and made a quick pass over the nipple area and they all went off. IMHO chain fires can happen at either end.

Not a rocket scientist, was he?

 

[B P Arn]

we had this conversation several years ago. This guy loaded up the chambers and put the cylinder flat on a table or bench and left the nipples uncapped. He took a propane torch and made a quick pass over the nipple area and they all went off. IMHO chain fires can happen at either end.

Hmmmmm.... Imagine that...

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Back in the 70s I had one chain fire. I swore never to buy a BP revolver again...
Held true until this year when someone GAVE me one.
Still have not shot it.

 

[Stantheman86]

I always thought it would be extremely difficult for flame to enter under an ill-fitting cap then go down the flash hole and into the powder charge, but apparently it's possible.....

It always seemed more likely that the hot, fluid powder burn from the fired chamber would work past a loosely fitted ball or maybe powder grains on the cylinder face would flash up, sneaking flame past a tightly fitted ball.

However, how often do we hear of chain fires in a cartridge revolver? The bullet is nearly flush with the cylinder face in a Colt Model P and how much tighter of a fit is a bullet in a brass case vs the cylinder of a percussion revolver?

Given the balls or bullet is tightly fitted with a ring of lead shaved , the source of a chain fire would have to be at the nipples.

I think users of percussion revolvers were less worried about chain fires in the period than we are now.

This reminds me of how every single new muzzleloader owner that asks me for advice is always concerned with a "spark setting off the charge" as the rifle is reloaded. I tell them to leave the hammer down on a spent cap (obviously if its a caplock) while reloading because this is how the British mitigated this with the Enfield rifle. Some people still insist on putting the hammer at half cock after the shot to reload and "have never had a flash off". It's an eternal debate.