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1st time ML buyer w/ stupid questions

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pbford

32 Cal.
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Nov 30, 2009
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I am interested in getting started in ML and have looked at several different rifles and just don't like the looks of the guns available at Wally World, or to honest ANY of the composite stock things no matter which end you load them from. I keep coming back to the Hawken style rifles as my preferred style of rifle. Blued steel and wood stock, it just doesn't get any better looking. :bow:

I just wanted to know what ya'll think of Cabela's Traditional Hawken Percussion Rifle as a low cost starter rifle. The rifle with a starter kit for $420 seems like a good deal, just add powder and caps and away you go. What about a used T/C Hawken since they can be had for around half of the cost of the Cabela's rifle? I know neither one is "period correct" but they are close and look really nice.

How much real difference between a .50 cal and a .54 cal for hunting?

From my research I know that a 1:48 twist barrel is a compromise but do they shoot well? Does a 1:60 twist barrel really shoot tighter groups than a 1:48 with round balls at 100 yards? Pure lead or hard lead balls? Real BP or a sub like Pyrodex? Where can you find real BP? Any recipes for BP so I can make my own?

Lots of stupid questions I know but I thought it better to ask than to find out the hard way.

ANY other advise you can give would be great!

Thanks,
Paul
 
There's no dumb questions in the world, Paul, but there's lots of ignorant silence.
Get a second hand 50 or 54 TC. Plenty powerful for hunting. Adaptable. Easy to change calibers. That way you will have a good shot at good quality and good accuracy to find out what you like and what works well in your area.
 
Howdy Neighbor! I'm about 30 minutes from Bourbon, the city that is, not the bottle. Never a stupid question. Better to ask than to assume. First, let's not even think about making your own black powder, dangerous & I think illegal. There is a lot of places to buy black powder near us. I recommend real BP, Goex FF & FFF is most used, & it's already made, in a jug, ready to go. I recommend the Lyman Great Plains Rifle in 54 cal. Do you have any experience with a muzzle loader? Any friends with a muzzle loader? There are some good books & videos on muzzle loaders. You might want to start with a percussion, or have you thought about it? The 54 with 1 in 60 twist & round ball is very accurate & great for deer. :thumbsup:
 
Thanks GoodCheer. I'd like to do this right without wasting alot of money in the process. I thought of another question, what about minnie balls? Will they stabilize in a 1:48 barrel? As you can tell I know next to nothing about BP shooting but am trying to learn.

Paul
 
Hmmm... thought it MIGHT be a little dangerous but didn't know it would be illegal. :wink: I had decided on a Cap lock so that's one thing down. I fired a Flint lock ONCE a long time ago and that is the extent of my experience with BP. All my friends hunt with modern rifles (as I mostly do) or handguns so I don't have that avenue to answers. This BP itch that I have was sparked by seeing a nice T/C Hawken in a pawn shop for $350 and falling in love with the way it looked & handled. Of course it was scoped and that took away a little of the looks and the shop owner wanted to sell it "as is" so I left it in the shop.

The Lyman GPR is a awesome looking rifle but I haven't seen one used around here. I'll keep looking though.

Paul

P.S. From where I sit in Bourbon I'm about 30 secs from a bottle. :haha:
 
You have to be very careful buying a used BP gun. There is a lot of over priced junk out there. You really need to a bore light to look down the barrell. I think a lot of people get a muzzle loader, fail to clean it, then a year or so later discover the corrosion & pitting, clean it up as best they can & take it to a pawn shop. Check out www.midwayusa.com or www.midsouthshootingsupply.com You can get a new one on line & delivered to your door, no FFL needed. Have you considered a kit gun? Everything is inletted. You stain the wood & put it together with maybe a little final fitting. I'll take a look. I think you can get pretty close to that $350 price.
 
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paul check out the classified ads here there is a t/c renegade 54 cal. for 210 shipped to your door
neal (50 cal)
 
first, don't bother with trying to make your own blackpowder. i really don't care if it's legal or not, but i'm certian that you can't get the kind of cost efficiency or quality control in your kitchen sink that, say, Goex or one of the other large factories can get with an industrial scale manufacturing process. save your dough, go the the store and buy a few pounds (in cash if you're nervous about leaving a 'paper trail'). it will save you a lot of dissapointment.

second, get 'real black' if you can: it's cheaper than the subs, it's more stable over time (real black has a virtually indefinite shelf live) and it will provide much more consistent (and therefore more accurate) results. it's often harder to get, because the government (in its not so ultimate wisdom) classifies BP as an explosive, whereas substitute powders are propelants, with fewer and less silly restrictions on their storage and transport.

third- if you can get a used and not- too- beat- up T/C Hawken style rifle for $350, go for it! even if it has a 'scope, and looks silly (i think scoped muzzleloaders look silly, but that's a tirade for another day) you can always take the scope off. the warranty folks at Thompson Center have the best reputation in the industry (in my opinion) and will bend over backwards to fix a problem with one of their products, even if it wasn't the fault of the rifle in the first place. will they send you a new barrel because someone else drilled and tapped a 'scope onto it? probably not, but you should be able to get a new barrel, or a barrel on a gun auction site, to fit the rifle, and you'll still save a ton of money compared to a new gun.

fourth (i'm on a roll now) ..the fifty will work OK on most game animals in North America. (except moose, carabou, and griz bear) if you get a .54, you'll have a bit more authority/whompability and most hunters appreciate that. remember that in ML hunting, it's not the shock that kills the animal, it's the blood loss so, to paraphrase the late great Kietth Elmer, you want to let a lot of blood out and a lot of air in, and a .54 makes a bigger hole.

OK- more ranting and raving. Lyman makes a grreat product, so please don't take anything i might have said as a slap at Lyman. They're a bit more expensive than T/C, but their fit & finish is a bit nicer.

if you have a 1:48 twist you shouldn't have too much trouble stabilizing a patched round ball. This twist was also designed to work with a gadget called a 'maxi ball' (check out the Track of the Wolf website, i think they have a picture there and it will be self explainatory).

these are a boatload of threads on clean, care and feeding of BP weapons on this site (which is, i think, the most informative site on the web) and i'll leave you to your own decisions- most folks use warm (not hot) water and some mild soap, which will get your bore clean with no problem. (another advantage to T/C is that the barrels come out easily and are easier to manipulate).

all this is with the caveat: just one guy's opinion, and no doubt worth what you just paid for it.

good luck in your quest for BP coolness; and by way of another thought, don't completely abandon the notion of flint. to paraphrase the little green Jedi:

once rocks banged have you, forever will they dominate your range time.
 
I meant to give you www.midsouthshooterssupply.com Midway has the best price at this time. Whether you go 50 or 54 (my choice) you can also get a GPR Hunter barrell any time that is interchangeable & has a 1 in 32 twist rate, that would aid in stablizing conicals. Good luck in your choices & keep us posted. :thumbsup:
 
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Discussion of making your own black powder is prohibited on this forum. Unfortunately, Claude's links to the ATF site professing to explain why are not operating. Not that he needs to explain himself, but it would be nice to have the reference.

I believe it's a mistake for a person unfamiliar with black powder guns to buy a used bp gun. There are potential problems that can make a very pretty gun unusable, and they are not easily detected if you have no experience with what to look for.

Having said that, I would have a great deal of faith in used guns offered on this forum; just be sure to get a minimum 3 day inspection period with a no-questions-asked money back guarantee. That Renegade mentioned above is a fine, popular rifle, assuming it's in good condition.

The Cabela's Hawken mentioned in the OP is also a nice choice, although I'm personally very biased towards the Lyman Great Plains Rifles. I also like the Thompson Center Hawkens, but again, condition is everything.

.50 or .54 for large game, .32 to .45 for small game. .50 for in between (coyote, etc.). I think a .54 with 1:60 twist shooting a patched round ball is the best choice for whitetail, bear, swine and even elk. Yes, 1:48 will shoot a prb well, but reduce the load and range a bit.

Pure or soft lead rather than hard lead; you want the ball to be able to 'feel' the patch weave.

Real bp, buy it locally if you can find it; otherwise powderinc.com. Pyrodex and 777 are ok if you can't get it, but not preferred.

Get a powder flask, powder measure (NEVER load directly from the flask), short starter, ball puller, patch puller, cleaning jag, cleaning patches.

Also, teeth whitener; you'll be grinning a lot.

Edit: finding out the hard way is WHY we do this. It's lot's more fun that way.
 
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PaulB - Welcome aboard . . . No such thing as a stupid question . . . Just stupid answers :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:.

Some of my answers will echo several of the above answers, but might reinforce them in your head . . .

While the Cabelas Traditional Hawken is a good, decent rifle (that was my first ML), I feel it is over-priced when compared to others available. I would recommend the Lyman GPR (about $330 from MidSouth Shooters Supply) as a better alternative. I prefer the .54, but the .50 is a good rifle, too, just a bit heavier (I do have both). The GPR does give you the option of getting a GPH barrel if you want to shoot conicals, although a .54 with a round ball will kill any deer you would run across in your part of MO.

Try your darndest to stay with real BP and you won't be disappointed with a GPR. Real BP can be had via mail-order from various sources and shipped to your door.

I would advise checking the "For Sale" section on this site for a rifle - there were several listed the last time I looked that would fill the bill nicely for you. All the accoutrements needed for MLing can be picked up over the course of time. To start, though, you will want a short starter, a capper of some sort, a powder horn (or other powder dispenser), a powder measure (DON'T pour powder directly from the horn into the barrel!!!), a worm, a ball puller (or a CO2 discharger), a cleaning jag and a sturdy range rod (the ramrods that come with the rifles can and do break somewhat easily). You will find other things that you will feel are indispensable, but the list above will get you on your way.

Don't buy into all the special "Black Powder Cleaners" on the market today. They are expensive and unnecessary - water and a drop of Dawn dishwashing soap work just fine. At the range, for a quick clean-up, you can use Windex or windshield washing fluid to get it clean enough to get you home.

The guys here can help you with just about any question you might have, so fire away.

BTW - NO, DON'T DO IT. Just in case the question is about removing the breech plug . . . :nono:
 
I wasn't really thinking about making my own BP, I'm not into bathtub chem experiments that could hurt me. :grin: Lots of good advise. I was leaning towards a .54 cause (typical American thinking) bigger is better. :wink: I'll have to see if the T/C is still there. Maybe I can talk the owner, who is a shooter, into taking it to the range with me. A little try before you buy, eh?

I wasn't aware that real BP was more stable than the subs, I assumed it was a more modern and therefore more stable compound. Learned 2 new things today.

Maxi Ball? Is it about the same as a minnie ball? I know the minnie ball was invented to solve some of the problems with round ball and do away with the patch but thought it would be about the same as a prb in performance and need the same ROT as a prb. Something else to look up. :grin:

Thanks,
Paul
 
PaulB said:
I am interested in getting started in ML and have looked at several different rifles and just don't like the looks of the guns available at Wally World, or to honest ANY of the composite stock things no matter which end you load them from. I keep coming back to the Hawken style rifles as my preferred style of rifle. Blued steel and wood stock, it just doesn't get any better looking. :bow:

I just wanted to know what ya'll think of Cabela's Traditional Hawken Percussion Rifle as a low cost starter rifle. The rifle with a starter kit for $420 seems like a good deal, just add powder and caps and away you go. What about a used T/C Hawken since they can be had for around half of the cost of the Cabela's rifle? I know neither one is "period correct" but they are close and look really nice.

How much real difference between a .50 cal and a .54 cal for hunting?

From my research I know that a 1:48 twist barrel is a compromise but do they shoot well? Does a 1:60 twist barrel really shoot tighter groups than a 1:48 with round balls at 100 yards? Pure lead or hard lead balls? Real BP or a sub like Pyrodex? Where can you find real BP? Any recipes for BP so I can make my own?

Lots of stupid questions I know but I thought it better to ask than to find out the hard way.

ANY other advise you can give would be great!

Thanks,
Paul


For the money I would get a Lyman Great Pains Rifle; The slower twist rate DOES make a differance...DEFINATLY a .54 cal! Pure lead balls are best but wheel weights CAN work....I dont have ready access to "real" BP so I shoot Pyrodex RS and like it just fine. Id let access and cheaper steer that horse.
For the record I would take a T/C over the Cabels Hawken BUT the Cabelas is OK too...Still vote for the Lyman though, hands down!
:thumbsup:
 
mykeal said:
Discussion of making your own black powder is prohibited on this forum. Unfortunately, Claude's links to the ATF site professing to explain why are not operating. Not that he needs to explain himself, but it would be nice to have the reference.
Oops... Like I said I wasn't really thinking about making my own BP. :surrender:

It's hard to pass body language and a grin over the web. I guessed I missed that in the forum rules. Sorry Claude!!! Won't happen again.


mykeal said:
I believe it's a mistake for a person unfamiliar with black powder guns to buy a used bp gun. There are potential problems that can make a very pretty gun unusable, and they are not easily detected if you have no experience with what to look for.
Such as? Not being a smart a$$ just trying to learn. If I can get a look down the barrel with a bore scope, get the nipple out and run a pipe cleaner into the bore so I know its OK, what else should I look for? Don't most have a cleanout screw too? What should I look for in the lock?


mykeal said:
Get a powder flask, powder measure (NEVER load directly from the flask), short starter, ball puller, patch puller, cleaning jag, cleaning patches.
That is what attracted me to Cabela's rifle with a starter kit. It has all that (except cleaning patches) plus 25 balls a capping disk and pre-lubed patches. Add powder & caps and go to the range. After cleaning of course. :grin:

OK, Real BP is on the shopping list. With everyone saying the same thing it becomes a no-brainer. :bow:

.32 to .45 for small game? Up to what? I ask because Missouri has a .40 or .45cal, memory is shot, lower limit for the ML deer season. I didn't think to much of that since I watched a buckskinners get together down by Steelville and saw what a .45cal ML can do to a wooden target. Not enough IMHO.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and provide a newbie with extra info.

Paul
 
Second time you asked about Minie balls. The Minie requires a shallow grooved rifled barrel, and must be sized to within .001" of the bore diameter to shoot well. They don't work well in a typical BP barrel bored, and rifled to shoot PRBs. That is why no one has yet responded to your question. The Round Lead Ball is superior in performance on killing deer, in most people's experience. Forget about Maxiballs, or Minie balls for hunting thin skinned game. There is a Maxie Hunter that is better liked, and Hornady also makes a conical that is well received. Both will shoot out of a rifle with either 1:48, or 1:66" ROTs.

Black Powder: You live in Missouri. I don't know where Bourbon, Missouri is. But Graf & Sons is at Mexico, Missouri. And Powder Inc, is down in Arkansas, just across the river from Memphis, Tenn. So, you are within driving distance of two great suppliers of BP. If you buy it from them at their location, rather than having it shipped to you, you can save yourself the Haz Mat fee, charged on all Shipments. And, you can benefit from their volume discount prices. You say you don't have "buddies" who shoot Mlers. I am willing to bet that you have a BP gun club somewhere near you, and you just don't know it, yet.

Join the NMLRA. Go to their website, and look up their list of Charter Clubs. They have clubs in almost every state, and several in Missouri. They also have State Representatives in all the states- and several in large states like Missouri. Those Reps. are great people to know, and they will know where you can find other shooters, people who will help you learn to shoot that new gun, and where to go to acquire powder and other gear. Most of us now pool our powder orders with other shooters, so that we can order a case of powder( 25 lbs.) and maximize our savings on the discounted price. You may only shoot up 2 lbs. a years , and can't think of any reason to buy a case, now. Everyone else is in the same predicament. That is why we pool orders. With both companies mentioned, if you order 4-5 lbs., they will discount the price, but not as much as if you buy a case or two at one time. And, that Haz mat fee is the same whether you order and HAVE SHIPPED TO YOUR DOOR, one pound, or 50 lbs. At $20.00 per shipment, do the math to figure out how much that adds to the cost per pound. Goex has a website, as do both Graf & sons, and Powder, Inc. Go there( see the links section at the top of the index page to this forum), and call them, or the nearest distributor. Graf sells a " house Brand " of powder for about $1.00 less per pound than it gets for Goex. Powder inc, offers another Black Powder cheaper than Goex. We are talking 12-14 dollars a pound, vs. $20.00 or more a pound at retail( when you can find it. BP cannot be openly displayed, so you have to ASK the store owners if they have BP. Its kept in a safe away from customers. Talk about laws discouraging gun ownership by law abiding citizens!)

I will join others in suggesting you look at this forum's sale site for a used rifle, as your first gun. All the " Kinks" will have been worked out of it. The present owner can give you specific load information that will eliminate a lot of time and trouble, and wasted spending on your part trying to work up a good accurate load in the gun for hunting. You will be able to inspect, and shoot the rifle with a return policy if its not what you want.

I like the larger .54 cal. gun for hunting, but it uses more lead, and its a heavier gun than most .50s are. Recoil is heavier, unless we can convince you to use smaller charges for punching paper, and save the larger loads for when you are actually hunting game. The .54 is a versatile caliber, as its throwing 230 grains of lead- more than 1/2 ounce!-- with that round ball. You really don't need any kind of conical unless you intend to hunt dangerous game, like large bears. We have had members here kill small( 250 lb.) Black bears using the .54 and round balls, altho some have used specially cast RBs made with a harder lead alloy, to insure deep penetration. On deer, and even Elk, the RB usually completely penetrates the game, leaving large holes on both sides of the animal to let out a lot of blood fast. There is only so much "Dead" in any caliber, and the .54 does its job well. Recoil- altho more a shove, than a sharp pain in your shoulder-- does affect a shooters ability to accurately place his shot on his game target, and accurate placement is what hunting with a single shot rifle is all about. Don't kid yourself that you can " speed Reload" these rifles to get a second shot on an animal poorly hit with the first shot. Use any available support to steady those open sights when hunting, and make that first shot hit exactly where you aim. :thumbsup:
 
Flint 54 said:
There ya go, GPR 54 percussion kit, $329.99 Order now & you might have it by Friday.
Nice Price, Thanks!!! How hard are they to put together? Never having built a gun kit before I don't want to get in over my head and ruin a good gun before it's a finished good gun.

Thanks Again,
Paul
 
Thompson Center makes a fine dependable gun. If you can find one used with a good barrel then you have a good place to start. You will need to carry a bore light with you if you look at used guns. You can get a usable one pretty cheap if you pick up some of those glowing bobber lights. Just drop the light down the barrel and see if everything is shiny. If it isn't knock $100 off the price

Also check to see if the used gun is still loaded. Many are. Take the ramrod out and drop it into the barrel. Pinch the ramrod at the muzzle and then remove the ramrod and lay it next to the barrel. The end of the ramrod should be right next to the touchhole or nipple. If it is an inch or more away then the gun is still loaded.

I like a .54 more than a a .50 but a .50 will knock down anything in your area.

Many Klatch
 
paulvallandigham said:
Black Powder: You live in Missouri. I don't know where Bourbon, Missouri is. But Graf & Sons is at Mexico, Missouri. And Powder Inc, is down in Arkansas, just across the river from Memphis, Tenn. So, you are within driving distance of two great suppliers of BP.
Paulv - Mexico, MO looks to be very close to one Bourbon, MO (there are 2, one in Boone Cnty & one in Crawford Cnty) and about 125 miles from the other. Powder, Inc. is in Clarksville, AR - about half way between Little Rock and Fort Smith just north of I-40 (not right across the river from Memphis). It's close to me (about 125 miles) but not to PaulB. Regardless, PaulB, take a road trip to get some powder and get to some local rendezvous or ML club gatherings and start having fun.

BTW, PaulB - a GPR kit is not difficult to put together if you have some basic sanding, polishing and finishing abilities . . .
 
My vote is with Thompson Center (TC). they have the best customer service you will ever find.
If you loo around you should have no problem finding a very nice TC Hawken for a very good price. Check with your local gun shops & pawn shops. I have bought a lot of guns right here and have never had a problem with any of the members here. Here are some of the things you want to ask about a rifle offered for sale: 1. how's the bore? Is there any pitting in the bore?
2. What is the condition of the crown at the muzzle? 3. Has the rifle been refinished? 4. What is the condition of the wood? Are there any cracks or breaks in the stock? 5. What is the condition of the metal on the outside? Are there any pitting on the outside? 6. Does the rifle have a set trigger or is it a single trigger? Do the triggers work properly? 7. What is the condition of the sights? Any damage to either front of rear sight? What is the condition of the brass? 8. How does the rifle shoot (group size prefered).

Always try to talk to the seller over the phone and if you get answers to the above questions you should have no problems making up your mind. TC can help you fix anything that might need fixing. Most things will get fixed for free, other than the barrel & stock. A little pitting in the bore normally does not effect it's abilty to shoot good groups. Hope this helps.
 
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