2 groove British Sporter

[Steve Bertram]

I just bought and have not received yet this William Moore 2 groove 14 bore sporter. Twist is around 1:32" according to the seller. I plan on trying belted ball first from Jeff Tanner in the UK. Any input from anyone shooting 2 groove rifles would be greatly appreciated.
Steve

 

[curator]

My experience shooting original Brunswick 2-groove rifles showed the need for good quality pure lead castings and a "wad' of sorts over the powder charge to get any kind of accuracy. We had used both carded wool and compressed flax tow and both had worked well if compressed before the ball was loaded. Cream of Wheat cereal worked a bit better if there was enough of it and it was measured uniformly. We were shooting "bare-balls", not patched in any way so our poor accuracy may have been the result of not getting a good bore-seal. Nonetheless, without a wad between powder and ball, we could not even hit the 30X36 target backing at 50 yards. The Brunswick was not known for good accuracy, just a good idea that didn't quite work out.

 

[nkbj]

Thinking back to illustrations in old books and trying to remember, were faster twist two groove barrels used with a mechanically fit longer bullet?

Steve Bertam,
When you get a chance and if you would be so kind, I would enjoy seeing a photo of the rifling geometry.

 

[RAEDWALD]

One might get confusion between the thinking for the military Brunswick and the civilian later sporting rifles.

The idea for the Brunswick was to get both faster loading and a faster twist without too much fouling. The earlier slow Baker twist (1:120) let more rounds be rapid fired before fouling was a problem. Thus it was less accurate than it's German predecessors but a more usable military rifle. The Brunswick needed a belt to let a faster twist work in the same way. It is an unresolved puzzle why the initial 1840 Brunswicks were reported as easy to load and accurate to 300 yards yet by 1860 were reported as hard to load and inaccurate to 300 yards.

The thinking behind the civilian sporting 2 groove rifles was to allow a heavy charge. Such a charge with shallow multi groove rifling would strip the soft pure lead ball. By giving the ball a strong belt the charge could be much increased without the ball stripping thus giving a greater muzzle velocity. The hunter would likely be within 100-150 yards maximum so the ball could remain stable and supersonic to the target thus being both accurate and hard hitting. With a round ball energy cannot be increased by adding weight other than by increasing the bore (hence 4 bore elephant guns) so the belted ball let energy be increased by speeding up the ball by increasing the charge. Eventually it was overtaken by the cylindro-conical bullet that could add weight by increasing the length without increasing the bore. Ultimately the modern tiny bore and rapid velocity allowed by smokeless powder.

In both cases the belted ball was intended to be patched. With a close woven soft strong cloth or thin leather. Greased in each case. Wads were not part of the period load. Often the ball was wrapped in the patch, secured with a light thread stitch at the join pucker and then dipped or brushed with melted tallow. In the Brunswick case a black line was inked on the outside where the belt was (rolled on a wet pad?) to make loading faster.

Had the Brunswick been heavier loaded and the curious decay in loadability addressed, then it should have been an effective period rifle up to 300 yards. However, the load remained unchanged from the old Baker and allowed the issue of carbine paper cartridges from normal stores on the battlefield. Personally (drifting OT) I believe that the tallow on the ready patched lead balls reacted to swell them. Thus making long stored ball hard to load. However that will not be a problem for you as yours will be made and used fairly fresh. What the military needed and a hunter needed were not always the same. I could go on a long digression as to why Washington worked to replace rifles with muskets but I will spare you that digression.

Later uses of the 2 groove barrels moved to winged bullets of a cylindro-conical form, most famously by the Russians with the Kulikov winged bullet in their Brunswick copy and the 4 groove winged bullets of General Jacobs but the civilian counterpart were the winged bullets of Purdey. Google searching will give you more background on these.

 

[BillinOregon]

Steve, no advice, but have to congratulate you on a fascinating purchase. Moore built some fine guns. Can't wait to hear your report once you get it up and running.
Oh, and welcome to the forum!

 

[Rifleman1776]

Interesting, high quality old gun. I have never shot one but remember Lynton MacKinzie once showed me an African big game, single barrel rifle that had only two grooves in the rifling. I forget the bore size but it looked about as big as a sewer pipe. Huge.
When I asked him why only two grooves, he answered, "Why do you need more?".

 

[bigted]

I just bought and have not received yet this William Moore 2 groove 14 bore sporter. Twist is around 1:32" according to the seller. I plan on trying belted ball first from Jeff Tanner in the UK. Any input from anyone shooting 2 groove rifles would be greatly appreciated.
Steve

man that is some cool old metal! I do like the general lines and find it reminiscent [or the other way around in fact] of the general TC lines in their Hawken model.

I would bet that you can get the 32 inch twist 2 groove barrel to do accuracy if the general rules are followed. that being getting a bullet that is the hollow base design [minnie] in the correct diameter ... should follow that accuracy will follow with a smaller powder charge.??? maybe ???

 

[Mickc01]

My goodness that thing looks heavy!! My shoulder's aching just thinking about it.

 

[Steve Bertram]

Got her up and going. 90 grains of 2F Swiss, lubed wonder wad with a hardened ball from the mold I had made did the job. It was a great hunt. I ran into two bucks not 1/2 mile up the old forest road but could not put it together. A very slow walk produced this guy out of his bed about 5 miles later. The ball entered the junction of the right shoulder/neck and exited the left rear leg, complete length wise pass through. I really like this old gun. It required some stock repair and a few new screws to get it to this point. A nice re-brown and I will be finished with the restoration.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Nice job. Preserving the past and using that rifle for the purpose intended. And having fun at the same time. :applause:

 

[Colonial Boy]

Nice rifle, Steve, and some nice meat.

Enjoyed reading this thread and Rifleman 1776's remarks about the late, great LyntonMcKenzie awoke some memories.

I first met Lynton when he was a schoolboy and remained a friend until his untimely death.

We had some great times together.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Enjoyed reading this thread and Rifleman 1776's remarks about the late, great LyntonMcKenzie awoke some memories.

I first met Lynton when he was a schoolboy and remained a friend until his untimely death.

We had some great times together.

Thanks, CB. I met Lynton in New Orleans and was able to spend a day with him. He had some remarkable items in his shop. Just seeing very old original locks, triggers, etc. was an education. And the work he did was more beautiful and skillful than mere adjectives can describe. Another time, I'll tell the story of how he ended the day and politely encouraged me to leave the shop. Hint: he had a sense of humor. :grin:

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Hello Just joined as I have a 12g .6" Cape rifle 1861 by EW Rielly it was rusty at Holts UK auction cost me £860 winning bid It's now in mint condition after two months work Its usual two grove and I spun up some jackets out of copper tube, over a mandrel and then pressed wings into it, I can send video if you email me on csaranchai at aol.com ........spinning is easy..........I also added 4 more fine grooves using the two groves as a guide, I have done a lot of riffling on my home made machine...of course it's impossible to legally shoot it in the uk as there's no wild country and all the rangers are now closed , but hog hunting in France could be great

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Just wanted to add my rifling guide I use a similar one to refresh rifling The brass runners are soldered onto the copper tube and ingage in the deep two groves. Whilst the cutter adds 4 more fine grooves , I know it's historically bad to do such things , but made an interesting project for mini balls and round balls . It's now looking like a new rifle, steel barrels,French walnut wood. Now my favourite rifle must take it to France to hunt hogs. Stay safe we are in hard lockdown

 

[Melchi577]

I suspect it was intended for a winged bullet like this Purdey mould,

I'm sure I've seen some one advertising custom conical moulds with wings but cannot remember where sorry.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I should have added mine is a 1/38” twist and probably the norm. Reilly London produced numerous 2 groove big bore barrels look him up I thought about a belted ball mould but they are not accurate so I made some winged bullet moulds so far they are too big or too small My bore is around .623” I thought about paper patching .580 mini balls but a bit of a tall order. So in the end I added extra grooves to make it a more accurate rifle. I got into spinning jackets as midway closed in uk and I needed jackets for my nitro for black 577-500 no2. It’s as easy spinning jackets over a mandrel as casting them. And copper tubing so cheap. I think balls are for plinking and jackets for hunting

Stay safe

 

[Gordoncourtney]

When I first came across the above two groove rifle I had typed in cape rifle. So pleased with computer errors. Because I am in the uk I thought I would add an unsold Holts Reilly rifle. I would prefer an EM Reilly after 1858 as the son fitted french walnut like mine above and possibly steel barrels nice gun even so

Warm sunny day at last stay safe

Yes it’s 2 grove bore 20g

Click on photo and it should take you to Holts

 

[ResearchPress]

This is my 2 groove percussion muzzle loading sporting rifle by J. Blanch of London, c1840. This 17 bore rifle fires a 1 ounce belted ball.

David

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Very nice, in fact a lovely untouched rifle. Like the previous. Must get one , very envious. There is little published on the 30 year belted ball period, and on cape rifles. Belted ball moulds are quite cheap like £65 but they prefer you to send a plug of the bore, Mine seems to get tighter as you go down the bore. See Google.

The U.K. Muzzle loaders lost their hut at Bisely ranges so now it's a bit disjointed or I would rejoin they can only shoot at 50 yards short Siberia anyway. Nice crowd of people.

Nice to be on your forum , other forums have died.

It would be nice to see some of your shot targets of theses older guns particularly the belted ball.....at Holts auction theses lovely rifles go from £850 to £1500 but you can double that price by the time it gets to the USA, we have shipped guns to a friend in Florida.....a visitor took an air cane and had difficulty with USA customers, his only saving grace was he was a police firearms officer and finaly convinced customs it was a non working antique. I bought my 400-450 double rifle at Bonhams London, in 2011, not shot it yet.....I hoped to shoot wild pigs in France but three trips in my motorhome the only hog was on a motorway sign......although yo can use BP guns without a licence ,in France, it seems you have to get a permit to carry in your vehicle, very beaurocratic. ,France a big empty country.

I used to rifle barrels with a twisted square rod But then I made a machine out of a paint tin shaker and a stair lift, I can do 1 in 24" And 1 in 36" by changing gears...included photo......

England is for safer shotguns due to population dencity , just a police permit needed, you can just about get a 22 if you can have a farm to shoot on, and .243 if there is a need to cull deer........I lived in Lagos Nigeria for a bit and you just drove into the bush and shot what you like, but little to shoot other than birds. No big animals even belonged to the hunters club...never shot anything worth bothering in three years......incidentally visiting relatives in Perth OZ. You cannot hunt with a muzzleloader, no big deal getting a proper rifle though, not much to shoot anyway, another story.

My own saving grace theses days is I have two 12 ft lb 177 and 22 BSA Scorpio pcp rifles , dead accurate to 60 yards, I am lucky I have a wild 100 yard garden with pigeon and squirrels.
U
So lovely to see you caring for theses lovely old guns......many thanks for the effort , shared by others

Gordon UK

 

[ResearchPress]

The U.K. Muzzle loaders lost their hut at Bisely ranges so now it's a bit disjointed or I would rejoin they can only shoot at 50 yards short Siberia anyway. Nice crowd of people.

I shoot with the MLAGB at Bisley... I don't go to the monthly meets on Short Siberia ( a long way for a day trip), but shoot the MLAGB National Rifle Championship matches at Bisley at 200, 300, 500, 600, 900 and 1000 yards. With the Long Range Rifles Branch we also shoot at 1100 and 1200 yards. The Assocaition also has its own ranges at Wedgnock, Warwick with three ranges with covered firing points at 25, 50 and 100m. There's also regular DTL Shotgun shots at Sywell, besides several regional shotgun matches.

Membership renewals always welcomed! www.mlagb.com

David