Want to get into Muzzleloading and have a lot of questions so I figured I would post in this forum.

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You may want to ask your BP buddies if they know of a local source (I consider local with 100 miles) for 4f powder for the pans and ask them where they get their flints. With appx 7000 gr to the pound, and a minscule amount used to prime it, a pound of 4f will last a long time.

Also, you may want to hold off on lead ball purchases until you buy the weapon and mic the barrel...my 50 Pedersoli will not accept .490 balls, I have to .480
That's what I said I was going to wait until I get my flintlock first and then buy lead shot and balls. I guess I should get a pair of digital calipers so that I can mic the bore. I can't find any 4f so I guess I will use the 3 for priming all of my buddies use 2 and 3 for their pans.
 
You may want to ask your BP buddies if they know of a local source (I consider local with 100 miles) for 4f powder for the pans and ask them where they get their flints. With appx 7000 gr to the pound, and a minscule amount used to prime it, a pound of 4f will last a long time.

Also, you may want to hold off on lead ball purchases until you buy the weapon and mic the barrel...my 50 Pedersoli will not accept .490 balls, I have to .480

What thickness patch are you using?
 
@Murphy_Roberts, the powder you are buying seems to be ideally suited for a Fowling gun, be it a 20 gauge or larger.

The most important part of a flintlock is the lock. Most barrels will be capable of hunting accuracy even with some pitting. There will be a need to be more wary of fouling buildup in a pitted bore than a pristine bore, but hunting accuracy can be acceptable.

For a target shooting use of the flintlock, the 45 caliber rifle will be toward the top of the priority list, but that not to say that 50 caliber or 54 caliber rifles are not equally likely to be excellent target rifles.

In any flintlock, be most attentive to the lock. Who is the maker of the lock? Who is the manufacturer of the firearm? What signs of scorching are seen at the touch hole? Is there a touch hole liner? Can you drop one of those fishing bobber Thill lights down the barrel for a look? Can you run a patch down the barrel to check for bore roughness or hidden bulges? A little brown on the patch may not be a deal breaker but can be a basis for negotiation.

The T/C Renegade smoothbore in 56 caliber is interesting unless it is a percussion since you want a flintlock. T/C flintlocks can often benefit from a change in the hammer and the frizzen for better geometry. All will likely need some level of lock tuning to function at the best.

As you have pointed out the diversity of flintlocks that are used by your Forestry Service team there are a lot of choices out there and all of them have their proponents. You may get lucky and find that flintlock that just fits. Don't let the thrill overcome the cool headedness to carefully evaluate the firearm.

Best of luck in your search and welcome to the Forum.

We can provide a better level of opinion if we know more information about the rifles you are looking at.
 
Welcome aboard. I can only tell you what I would do if I was sarting all over again. I'd start with an FDC in 20 bore. They're very light when made well and they kill everything. I think smoothbores are a bit less finicky than rifles. However, you still have to put your time in and find a load that it likes, shot and ball; and more shooting time to get good with it. It takes a little getting use to using the proper cheek weld instead of a rear sight. Oh, and they shoot all day long, I've shot over a hundred round balls with out wiping. Now dont get me wrong, I love my .62, .58, .54, .45 and my .32. Rifles, I've exclusivity only hunt with flintlocks for the past 6 years. The FDC has 6 Gobblers, 4 Deer, 1 Bear to its credit with one year being a triple. Buck, Bear, Gobbler; a bunch of Squirrels, a few Rabbits and Grouse. So that's where I'd start if I were starting out again. You just starting not finishing, so you dont have to stop there.
 
@Murphy_Roberts, the powder you are buying seems to be ideally suited for a Fowling gun, be it a 20 gauge or larger.

The most important part of a flintlock is the lock. Most barrels will be capable of hunting accuracy even with some pitting. There will be a need to be more wary of fouling buildup in a pitted bore than a pristine bore, but hunting accuracy can be acceptable.

For a target shooting use of the flintlock, the 45 caliber rifle will be toward the top of the priority list, but that not to say that 50 caliber or 54 caliber rifles are not equally likely to be excellent target rifles.

In any flintlock, be most attentive to the lock. Who is the maker of the lock? Who is the manufacturer of the firearm? What signs of scorching are seen at the touch hole? Is there a touch hole liner? Can you drop one of those fishing bobber Thill lights down the barrel for a look? Can you run a patch down the barrel to check for bore roughness or hidden bulges? A little brown on the patch may not be a deal breaker but can be a basis for negotiation.

The T/C Renegade smoothbore in 56 caliber is interesting unless it is a percussion since you want a flintlock. T/C flintlocks can often benefit from a change in the hammer and the frizzen for better geometry. All will likely need some level of lock tuning to function at the best.

As you have pointed out the diversity of flintlocks that are used by your Forestry Service team there are a lot of choices out there and all of them have their proponents. You may get lucky and find that flintlock that just fits. Don't let the thrill overcome the cool headedness to carefully evaluate the firearm.

Best of luck in your search and welcome to the Forum.

We can provide a better level of opinion if we know more information about the rifles you are looking at.
Both the 12ga Fusil and the 16ga English fowler I am looking at both have Siler or Slier ( I forgot how it's spelt) Flintlocks and Colerain barrels both are 44". I'm assuming they are good as I see them mentioned in a lot of for sale ads on this forum. As for the rifles most had Douglas Barrels, 1 had a Getz and one was a Rice locks were L&R on the Getz and Rice. The others were not marked. Are those smoothbores good that I'm looking at with those parts ?
 
I said to get 20 because I think it would be better with patched round balls than the 16 or 12 also you can buy the 20 balls easily not sure about 16 and 12
 
Once you get a gun.....

When you're working up "the load" for your gun(ball size, powder granulation and amount, patch material, patch lube...it all matters) shooting for best group of 5 shots at 50 yds off a bench is best. Once you find the magical combination of all the above that yields the tightest group, you adjust the sights to put that group in the bullseye, which often means filing the front sight or tapping the rear sight(depending on the gun you get and the sights it has). A sub 2" group of 5 at 50yds should be the goal.

Once there, you "know" the gun can do it. Now it's up to you; to be able to shoot that sub 2" group off hand at 25 yds everytime is the goal. I'm not there yet. Consistency in your loading matters, do it the same way every time. I swab between shots to keep bore fouling consistent but not everyone does.
 
Once you get a gun.....

When you're working up "the load" for your gun(ball size, powder granulation and amount, patch material, patch lube...it all matters) shooting for best group of 5 shots at 50 yds off a bench is best. Once you find the magical combination of all the above that yields the tightest group, you adjust the sights to put that group in the bullseye, which often means filing the front sight or tapping the rear sight(depending on the gun you get and the sights it has). A sub 2" group of 5 at 50yds should be the goal.

Once there, you "know" the gun can do it. Now it's up to you; to be able to shoot that sub 2" group off hand at 25 yds everytime is the goal. I'm not there yet. Consistency in your loading matters, do it the same way every time. I swab between shots to keep bore fouling consistent but not everyone does.
I'm getting a smoothbore as it is most versatile and there is no rear sight just a front small blade on both smoothbores. Can a smoothbore really make sub 2" groups ? I thought 3" or 4" groups were going to be the best I could get.
 
I love the part about the .58 rendering the .50 and .54 useless !! What a bunch of turkeys!! Oh, there is a powder shortage right now so get a .45 !! Guess they forgot, you still have to buy it by the pound?
 
Both the 12ga Fusil and the 16ga English fowler I am looking at both have Siler or Slier ( I forgot how it's spelt) Flintlocks and Colerain barrels both are 44". I'm assuming they are good as I see them mentioned in a lot of for sale ads on this forum. As for the rifles most had Douglas Barrels, 1 had a Getz and one was a Rice locks were L&R on the Getz and Rice. The others were not marked. Are those smoothbores good that I'm looking at with those parts ?
Siler locks are very good, although that depends on who actually assembled the parts and did the hardening and tempering. The Siler locks are now manufactured and distributed by Chambers, another excellent lock manufacturer so parts are available if necessary. How do they spark?

I think having the 44" Colerain barrels is a plus. These are probably the Colerain American Fowler barrels in octagon to round. I would be inclined to select the 16 gauge English Fowler as depending on the barrel configuration might be a bit lighter and easier to handle than the 12 gauge Fusil. Some 16 gauge barrels share the outer dimensions of a 20 gauge, the Colerain American Fowler. Barrel Diagrams | Colerain Barrel Co.

Just have to put them to the shoulder and see how they point. Without shooting them and with the fowling gun at the shoulder, the front bead should be centered over the slot in the tang bolt and the bead view should include some of the barrel.
 
Didn't see the "you're getting a smoirhbore" part. Accuracy? I don't know exactly what they're capable of. 4" at 50 without a rear sight even seems tough to me.

Youll have to do less work on load development with a smoothbore. Type of patch and lube is less umportant as theres no rifling for it to interact with.

i really want a Fusil de Chaisse, 20 ga/62 cal.

I'm getting a smoothbore as it is most versatile and there is no rear sight just a front small blade on both smoothbores. Can a smoothbore really make sub 2" groups ? I thought 3" or 4" groups were going to be the best I could get.
 
I'm getting a smoothbore as it is most versatile and there is no rear sight just a front small blade on both smoothbores. Can a smoothbore really make sub 2" groups ? I thought 3" or 4" groups were going to be the best I could get.
Ah, we are back to the theory and practice of muzzle loading.
In theory, a sub 2" group is possible when shooting a smoothbore at a range of 25 5o 50 yards.
In practice, a 3" or larger group is much more likely.
 
Yea I looked up pictures and old retail information on them and to be honest I don't think I would spend a penny over $500 for a Thompson center rifle. The world's fair version looks just like any other. I saw a few on gunbroker selling at $800 and $900 and I couldn't justify spending that on a gun that doesn't seem appealing. Yea I definitely will be up on the watchtower looking for better deals.
OK. First of all, I want to congratulate you for all the enthusiasm you have to shoot BP. It is great to hear. As you know, there is so much information and opinions out there, that it is really hard to sort a lot of it out. First of all you really should buy a lot of FFG black powder. Once you start shooting, you will be surprised how quickly it can be used up; not to mention the shortage of powder these days. If you ever get "out" of traditional muzzleloading, you would have no trouble finding someone to buy it from you.

POWDERS
Specific to shooting Patched Round Ball, in my opinion, the best powder (and most expensive) is Swiss. Second would be Schuetzen. Third would be GOEX. Fourth would be Old Eynsford. Now, these are all really good powders with the last 3 being more affordable. The real issues are: (1). Which powder works the best in YOUR gun? (2). What amount of powder works best? ( 3). How thick of a patch to use? (4). How accurate is your gun? Now if you have unlimited funds and time, you could buy all the powders and shoot all kinds of combinations till you find the right load. For me in my .45 TC Seneca, I use70 grains of GOEX FFG, a .440 round ball and a #18 pre-cut patch which I sparingly lubricate with Mink Oil.

LUBES
Seems like there are a million kinds of lubrication recipes out there. Everyone has their own favorite. Some use Bore Butter, Crisco, Olive Oil, Bees Wax, Windex, Moose Milk, Bear Tallow, Spit, you name it and the combinations go on and on. Personally, I use Mink Oil. It comes in a can, it's easy to use, it has no petroleum in it, it is all natural, it doesn't get rancid, and it doesn't harden in cold weather.

GUNS
Starting out, there was no question for me that I wanted to use a straightforward rifle and not some variation that might be somewhat narrow in scope. By this I mean the first gun might have been say, a .50 Caliber Hawken. From there, people get into other variations such as Fowlers/Smoothbores, Under-Hammers, in different calibers, etc. Some only hunt Whitetails, others small game, squirrels all which require different calibers. One wouldn't hunt ducks with a rifle, etc. I don't have the luxury to have a number of MLs to use, so I decided given where I hunt and what I hunt (Whitetails), what would be the most all-around rifle for me? Therefore, I chose a .45 caliber. A .45 can pretty much do it all within reason (no Grizzlies). Or maybe a .50 is right but then again you wouldn't use it on squirrels. If you were only going to hunt small game, then a smoothbore might be right.

PERCUSSION OR FLINTLOCK
It's up to you. If most of your friends shoot Flintlock, then you would have a resource to walk you through things. I shoot a Percussion and being there is so much to learn, it might be easier. After loading, you just put on a cap and pull the trigger. I have the utmost admiration for those who shoot a Flintlock. To me, that is a real challenge.

WHAT GUN
:thumb: Once you have chosen the caliber you want, now comes the real challenge, what gun? All I can do is to relate my experience. I wanted a ML that looked had nice lines, was considered a quality gun, had some tradition or history to it, was in good shape, nice wood and was easy to carry. It didn't have to be an actual piece from the 17 or 1800s or had to be totally historically correct. So I wound up with a Thompson Center .45 Seneca manufactured maybe around 1974. The gun us great, but early on I found some problems that as a novice I overlooked. The bore was in great shape however, there was an incredibly fine hairline crack in the stock maybe 4 or 5" long that you didn't notice unless you looked at it in the light. When the barrel was removed, there was an actual hole and an internal split in the stock maybe 4" long in the channel beneath the barrel. Finally, when sighting it in, I found the rear sight bottomed out so I couldn't adjust the elevation any lower. So I had to find a new sight which was almost impossible. Finally, after a month, I found one after much frantic searching. I was charged three times the amount it should have been for the sight because of its rarity. So we have the cost of the gun, the repairs to the stock and the cost of the sight. Oh yes, I had the stock refinished which revealed some really beautiful wood. I think I probably spent on repairs the actual price of the gun. The gun is perfect now. My point being, if you are looking at older guns, you need to get it really inspected. You may not be able to find a part if you need one for an older gun. Check out the bore. Are there any cracks or spites in the stock? Is the barrel rock solid in the channel? Have a ML expert check it out before buying? Just because it is in a sporting good store or gun shop doesn't mean it's ready to go. Now of course, you have current day reproductions such as Lyman, Pedersoli, Traditions, and Investarms. Then you can get custom builders to build you one to your specifications which might be too involved at this point to determine what you really want. Also, you can get muzzleloading kits and build your own? It all depends on time and money. Hope all this helps. BY the way, with the price of the TC plus the all the repairs to it, I was probably around $600 when all was said and done. Good luck.:thumb:
 
Hey all, just joined the forum today and I have many, many questions. Recently I became a member of the Maryland Forestry Service and all but 1 member on my 12 man crew is big into using Flintlocks ( that member is me). I went shooting with them a few times and fell in love. I was amazed by the flintlocks they had. It all seems so much more interesting than just plopping a brass chunk into a barrel and going bang. I asked them what flintlock I should start off with as I haven't a clue and this was the response I got. 3 of my crew members use .45cal rifles and said to go with them as there is a powder shortage right now and they use less powder. 2 of my crew members said to use .58 caliber as it kills more efficiently and renders .50 and .54 useless. 5 crew members use smooth barrel flintlocks ( I called them shotgun and was sternly reminded that they are actually "Fowlers". 3 use Pedersoli Trade Guns, 1 uses a Veteran Arms Fusil de chasse and the last uses an original fowler from CT which is longer than a telephone pole. Finally my Supervisor and Foreman both use .65 cal German rifles they bought at a show in Ohio. I know this is a lot of useless info but here is where I'm stumped. My most local sporting store sells .32-.50 round balls and only FFG blackpowder "Old Eynesford" limit of 1 lb per person per day until supplies run out. I've read that FFG can't be used for anything larger than .50 cal. Secondly, there are 7 flintlocks for sale at my local store. 3 are .45 cal long rifles ranging in different lengths. 1 is a custom job in .577 for "enfield bullets" and the other 3 are .32 for small game, a 16g fowler and a 20g fowler. I don't really like the idea of buying a rifle online but am open to it I'd rather see and check the fit. Bottom line what does everyone think is better , will a .45 cal be good enough or should I buy one of the fowlers and try and find larger grain powder. They all fit me and hold amazing. I just want some opinions from those with experience and I guess this is a great place to start. If this post is in the wrong spot I apologize and if I bore you all with this post I apologize in advance. I thank everyone who responds with their experiences and opinions and all input on the topic will be appreciated greatly. Also anyone in Maryland on here? If so what have your experiences been like if you want to share them, what has worked for you when hunting deer or other game.
A .45 is absolutely gun enough for any target shooting and any hunting East of the Mississippi. (Not sure what your hunting regs are in MD but here in VA .45 was our minimum for deer until they lowered it to .40 last year.) It’s my go-to for deer, critters, and targets, and will take a turkey if you have some practice in. Nothing wrong with using 2F in a .45 or anything up to 1.25” bore- it’s my universal grind. 75 gr of 2F under a patched .445 ball will knock a deer dead and you get almost 100 rounds to a pound of powder.
I also have a Veteran fusil de chasse, which is tolerable, and a Pedersoli trade gun. Both are 20 gauge, which I got to save powder and lead, but my first love is the King’s Arm- a 2nd model Brown Bess will kill anything in North America. Except, evidently, George Washington.

Whatever you get, have fun!
Jay
 
A .45 is absolutely gun enough for any target shooting and any hunting East of the Mississippi. (Not sure what your hunting regs are in MD but here in VA .45 was our minimum for deer until they lowered it to .40 last year.) It’s my go-to for deer, critters, and targets, and will take a turkey if you have some practice in. Nothing wrong with using 2F in a .45 or anything up to 1.25” bore- it’s my universal grind. 75 gr of 2F under a patched .445 ball will knock a deer dead and you get almost 100 rounds to a pound of powder.
I also have a Veteran fusil de chasse, which is tolerable, and a Pedersoli trade gun. Both are 20 gauge, which I got to save powder and lead, but my first love is the King’s Arm- a 2nd model Brown Bess will kill anything in North America. Except, evidently, George Washington.

Whatever you get, have fun!
Jay
Yea in MD the lowest caliber is .40 and 60 grains of any powder charge. Is the Vetern Fusil de Chasse good ? My buddies all have it but they've modified them from original like browning their barrels and staining the wood to their liking. Is yours original from purchase? If so is the barrel really shiny ? I only ask because in videos I watch it looks like a satin metal finish on the barrel and it looks like it will rust easily.
 
Welcome

I have been reading some of the comments.

If you want to target shoot out to 100yds and beyond, shoot steel, or do woods walks etc... A smooth bore is gonna be real pain.
Now that is not to say it cannot be done, as I have seen some very good shooting with a smooth flintlock out to 100yds.

If you are not going to do any real target shooting, and want to hunt deer out to 75 yards, or go after gobblers then a smooth will be fine.

.40 is my favorite for shooting paper for score, and currently building a .50 to increase ability to knock down steel silhouettes
 
Yea in MD the lowest caliber is .40 and 60 grains of any powder charge. Is the Vetern Fusil de Chasse good ? My buddies all have it but they've modified them from original like browning their barrels and staining the wood to their liking. Is yours original from purchase? If so is the barrel really shiny ? I only ask because in videos I watch it looks like a satin metal finish on the barrel and it looks like it will rust easily.
I got mine secondhand. The barrel was coated with some kind of brown crap but only on the top- it hadn’t been taken out of the stock. Pretty sure the barrel is stainless. Likewise all the furniture was smeared with the brown stuff and had also rusted some. I stripped it all, hit it with Evaporust, and then spent a few days treating it with vinegar, which mellows the steel- gives it a patina that’s more pleasing to me, and knocks down the shininess. Used some Citrus-strip to clean up the stock and rubbed in a couple or three coats of tung oil. Pretty happy with how it came out.
The coworker I bought it from said he was happy with it throwing round balls to 50 yards. I haven’t really had a chance to put her through her paces yet, but she points naturally. Heavier than a Pedersoli Brown Bess, though.
Jay
 

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