20 vs. 12 gauge for hunting

[Onojutta]

An object moving along a line will continue on that line unless outside force is applied. I'd like to know what force will make a roundball zig and zag.

Spence

Turbulent air flow. Google "vortex shedding" if you want to know more.

 

[tenngun]

This is all happening very fast. Would not very minor changes that happen in air pressure between you and the target combined with minor variation in the density of the ball itself not be enough to generate a wobble?
Would not a ball going in a straight line hitting an area of greater air density on one side not cause the ball to ever so slightly change direction?

 

[Britsmoothy]

And we are all assuming the ball is still a close to perfect sphere!!

 

[George]

This is all happening very fast. Would not very minor changes that happen in air pressure between you and the target combined with minor variation in the density of the ball itself not be enough to generate a wobble?
Would not a ball going in a straight line hitting an area of greater air density on one side not cause the ball to ever so slightly change direction?

The problem with all the highfalutin theories is that in my experience they don't show up in the field. I've never been able to duplicate the famous sudden change in direction at 60-70 yards which is claimed to make smoothbores useless beyond that distance. I don't know if the balls I shoot are wobbling or zig-zagging, but their final trajectory is straight forward as far as windage and only up and down as is predicted. They don't dart to the side, and the results are consistent shot to shot.

Spence

 

[megasupermagnum]

And we are all assuming the ball is still a close to perfect sphere!!

And that is the catch, isn't it. It's hard enough to predict how a perfect ball acts. Deform it, and it is nothing but a guess. I've never recovered a ball from a rifle, but pulled balls already show they are slightly deformed from loading. A smooth bore is slightly different, but I have recovered balls from a modern shotgun. In that case, I'm shooting an over-bore size ball, and there is a belt around the ball from swaging to fit the bore, plus the wads cause the ball to flatten the rear end slightly. What you are left with is anything but a sphere. I would think your best bet to maintain a sphere would be a patched ball in a smooth bore muzzleloader, that starts in the bore with only a thumb, and no wads underneath. As it happens, I don't think that is considered all that accurate a load by too many people. I could be wrong.

 

[Zonie]

The fact that roundballs, after loading are not perfect spheres is what can cause a deflection in odd directions.
The supersonic or close to supersonic air that is acting on the irregularities on the ball is powerful and it tries to change the direction the ball is flying.

With a roundball, fired out of a smoothbore, because the ball is not spinning, the direction of change is pretty much in one direction. Because of this, the ball goes off course. With a rifle, because the ball is rotating along the direction of flight, the force that is trying to deflect the ball is constantly changing.

For instance, let's assume a non-rotating ball fired out of a smoothbore has a irregularity that causes it to deflect to the left. As the ball flys downrange, it will move to the left.
The same force on the same ball, fired out of a rifle is also starts to turn left but almost instantly, the ball has rotated so now the force is trying to deflect the ball to the left and down but before it can move in that direction, it has rotated further so now the force is trying to deflect it down. As the ball continues to rotate, it soon is being pushed to the right, then upward, then to the left, then down, then to the right and so on. The net effect of this is, the force that is trying to deflect the ball cancels itself out so the ball continues dowrange in a straight line. (Yes, I know. It is a curved line because of the force of gravity).

As for why the ball fired out of a smoothbore will fly pretty straight for a short distance but gets deflected in greater amounts as it travels downrange, it has to do with velocity. As we all know, sphere's are poor aerodynamic performers and they loose their velocity rather fast.
Now, the balls mass and velocity (energy), which tries to keep the ball going in a straight line decreases by the square of the velocity so, as the velocity falls, the energy that is trying to keep the ball flying straight also rapidly decreases.
This allows the wind's deflecting force created by the irregularity to have more of an influence on the ball downrange than it has at close range.

The net effect of all of this is, out to about 50 yards, the ball will fly fairly true but beyond that distance it will start to veer off course more rapidly. The further it goes, the greater the deflection.

 

[Onojutta]

Guys there are a lot of variables that are hard to account for in the laboratory much less control in the field. The “vortex shedding” of a round ball will still happen even if the ball is deformed a bit, but those deformations (like the sprue) will also disrupt air flow around the ball and cause even more irregularity.
As some more food for thought, did you know this is why golf balls are dimpled? The dimples reduce the surface area of the ball that is in contact with the air, which reduces the drag and irregular effects of the air flow around the ball.
Another relatable example is a whiffle ball. If you’ve ever batted a whiffle ball around the back yard with your kids, you have probably noticed that the balls that are whiffled (full of holes) often tend to fly straighter than a solid plastic ball.
Coincidentally, I recently saw a video on YouTube by duelist1954 where he tested regular round balls vs “chewed” balls. The intent of the “chewed balls” is presumed to produce the same effect as dimples on a golf ball. In his simple test he found that the chewed balls actually performed worse. His test was obviously rudimentary, but I would venture a guess that the dimpling profile of the chewed balls he used was too fine to make much of a difference. Perhaps a larger profile would have had a more significant effect.
Here is his video:

 

[tenngun]

The problem with all the highfalutin theories is that in my experience they don't show up in the field. I've never been able to duplicate the famous sudden change in direction at 60-70 yards which is claimed to make smoothbores useless beyond that distance. I don't know if the balls I shoot are wobbling or zig-zagging, but their final trajectory is straight forward as far as windage and only up and down as is predicted. They don't dart to the side, and the results are consistent shot to shot.

Spence

They seem to be. At least when you fine your load. A tight shot seems to work better then a loose one. Although it seems some folk get a good group from a loose load then others.
But I know in my shooting I often get a few shots right on target in a close group, then one as a ‘flyer’
Did I just miss aim? It doesn’t seem to often happen with PRB in a rifle. It got easier to aim my smoothies with a rear sight, but still get more flyers from smooth then rifled. And my rule misses are still very close to my group.
All would be deer killers, but not tack drivers.
I noted Dualist 54 did some shooting with his smoothies and seems to get a few shots close and one off. This is what I get in my shooting. Did he miss aim one shot in three? Repeatedly producing the same effects?
You misunderstood if you thought I was proposing a highflutin theory. Just asking a question.
It seems something effects the shot
Now let us say that you have 2” low to the left. You fire again and get two close and one 2” high to the left.
Did the shot fly in a smooth line from muzzle to target? Are there effects that drive a ball on a wabbeling line?
It’s so fast, and unpredictable but I wonder what happens.
I’m not thinking a smoothie is useless after seventy yards but I can’t keep a small enough group I would feel comfortable shooting deer beyond that range.
If it was the difference between an empty belly and a deer that was shot through the liver and having to track it two miles till it finally bleed out, well then I’m sorry to the deer. But I won’t go hungry if I don’t get a kill.

 

[George]

The net effect of all of this is, out to about 50 yards, the ball will fly fairly true but beyond that distance it will start to veer off course more rapidly. The further it goes, the greater the deflection.

I know that is the dogma, has been for a very long time, but it's not my experience.

Spence

 

[The Crisco Kid]

I don't know if this is a good place to ask but how much, or how little, choke can I have in a 20 gauge and still get easy loading and decent groups with a round ball?

 

[Robby]

Friction.
Robby

 

[tenngun]

I know that is the dogma, has been for a very long time, but it's not my experience.

Spence

A few weeks ago Duelist 54 did some shooting with his fusil loaded on a wad and shot offhand at fifty one hundred and one hundred twenty five yards. The target was a man sized standing cast off as if to be shooting.
Five hits at fifty, three at a hundred, zero at one twenty five.
Could you post some of your targets at those ranges? Maybe use a deer sized target ?

 

[George]

A few weeks ago Duelist 54 did some shooting with his fusil loaded on a wad and shot offhand at fifty one hundred and one hundred twenty five yards. The target was a man sized standing cast off as if to be shooting.
Five hits at fifty, three at a hundred, zero at one twenty five.
Could you post some of your targets at those ranges? Maybe use a deer sized target ?

I've never shot at 125 yards with a smoothbore, don't plan to. I have already posted targets at 75 yards and 100 yards in threads just like this one, several times over the years, which I offered as evidence of my ideas, and you have seen them. I don't shoot smoothbores at such ranges except from curiosity, to see if the much discussed "knuckleball effect" will rear its ugly head for me. No luck, so far. I've posted a 4-shot 3 1/2" group at 75 yards in 1997 and a 3-shot 4" group at 100 yards in 2014. Do a search, they are still in the archives.

Most of the targets I've shot which prove to me that balls from smoothbores fly straight without any zigging, zagging, lurching or sudden changes in direction haven't been at deer-size targets, they have been at deer. One in particular is easy to remember. A fat doe at about 70 yards, standing face on. Me sitting at the base of a cedar tree with a solid rest on my knees, front and only sight locked onto her chest, but hoping she would turn a bit so I would't shoot her in the gut. When she did, I held just medial to the point of the left shoulder and took the shot. When I went to her I found that I had hit her perfectly on elevation, just medial to the point of the left shoulder. Right where I aimed, within one inch. Can't do that with a knuckleball.

BTW, for anyone curious enough, look up the current understanding of the knuckleball. Using high speed cameras, radar, GPS, whatever, studies have shown that the trajectory of a knuckleball doesn't really deviate from that of a ball thrown in an ordinary way. It's mostly an illusion, apparently.

BTW=2, tenngun. Duelist1954 shot offhand at a 125 yard target with a smoothbore and missed all the shots. Are you claiming that was because the trajectory went south as the balls passed 50 yards?

Spence

 

[Onojutta]

Spence, the "knuckleball" effect, as you call it, is not a function of distance traveled. That zig-zag behavior is not going to increase as the ball moves further down range, as drop will. It will be doing the same thing at 150 yards that it was doing at 5 yards in this regard.

The difference in accuracy achieved at the distances mentioned will be mostly influenced by the shooter's marksmanship skills. The "pingpong ball" effect, as I will call it, (knuckleballs have the additional variable of the threads) is real and will have some effect at any distance. Again, the pingpong ball suspended in an airstream exhibit demonstrates that this behavior is not just highfalutin theory.

 

[megasupermagnum]

Well of course there is some effect on a ball from a smooth bore. What it is exactly, I do not know. If there wasn't, rifling would be pointless. In my own experience, while great groups at 50 yards are possible, by 100 yards they more than double. What can be 3" to 4" at 50 yards, is usually 12" at 100 yards. I'm not saying you can't do better, only that there is not a linear dispersion going on.

I'm not talking about a lucky group here and there either. There is no way to get a smooth bore to shoot like a rifle.

 

[tenngun]

I've never shot at 125 yards with a smoothbore, don't plan to. I have already posted targets at 75 yards and 100 yards in threads just like this one, several times over the years, which I offered as evidence of my ideas, and you have seen them. I don't shoot smoothbores at such ranges except from curiosity, to see if the much discussed "knuckleball effect" will rear its ugly head for me. No luck, so far. I've posted a 4-shot 3 1/2" group at 75 yards in 1997 and a 3-shot 4" group at 100 yards in 2014. Do a search, they are still in the archives.

Most of the targets I've shot which prove to me that balls from smoothbores fly straight without any zigging, zagging, lurching or sudden changes in direction haven't been at deer-size targets, they have been at deer. One in particular is easy to remember. A fat doe at about 70 yards, standing face on. Me sitting at the base of a cedar tree with a solid rest on my knees, front and only sight locked onto her chest, but hoping she would turn a bit so I would't shoot her in the gut. When she did, I held just medial to the point of the left shoulder and took the shot. When I went to her I found that I had hit her perfectly on elevation, just medial to the point of the left shoulder. Right where I aimed, within one inch. Can't do that with a knuckleball.

BTW, for anyone curious enough, look up the current understanding of the knuckleball. Using high speed cameras, radar, GPS, whatever, studies have shown that the trajectory of a knuckleball doesn't really deviate from that of a ball thrown in an ordinary way. It's mostly an illusion, apparently.

BTW=2, tenngun. Duelist1954 shot offhand at a 125 yard target with a smoothbore and missed all the shots. Are you claiming that was because the trajectory went south as the balls passed 50 yards?

Spence

Going south is a loaded term. In Duelist case he was shooting close, if he shot five more shots I bet one would have connected. Shooting an enemy line it doesn’t go south because 10% hits would make the shot worth taking. I sure wouldn’t want some one shooting at me with a 10% chance of hitting me.
But I wouldn’t want to shoot at Bambi with a 10% chance of hitting.
Since Duelist gets rifle hits at two and Three hundred yards I don’t think it’s his shooting technique
In the seventeenth century a shooting contest was held in Central Europe, would have to look up the particular, but smoothies were shooting at longer Rangers then what we might shoot today, rifles longer still.
I don’t want it to sound like I was doubting your groups, will see if I can find your post. Do you get those groups constantly?
We have all had days when the angel on ones shoulder has the weak bladder and those days with a smiling angel.
Would you shoot at a deer at 75 or 100 yards?
Now the kicker here. A . 62 ball is a lot of lead. I would bet it’s more then enough to turn Bambi French at a hundred and twenty five yards. Is there something that’s happening beyond 75 or a hundred yards that’s concerning you?
I bet it’s not your shooting, I bet it’s something to do with exterior ballistics of the ball.
An HBC officer wrote in 1847 to buy a smoothie and shoot a PRB in it as was as accurate to 60 yards as a rifle, I go with fifty, but something seems to happen at about fifty yards that increases group size

 

[nhmoose]

I like a 16 gauge over either the 12 or 20.

New barrels available the 16 makes a lighter gun that shoots as good as the bigger bore 12.

 

[Snydly]

I'm going to speak on purely a practical standpoint. I know nothing on which was more common in the 18th century. From what I can tell from the 19th century, the 10 gauge was the all around shotgun gauge up until smokeless powder came about. The 16 is a favorite of mine, but I believe its popularity was more due to the fact that in a SXS, it was much less bulky than a 10, especially in a flintlock.

The difference between the 20 and 12 gauges is that the 12 can send more shot down range effectively. For the most part, a 20 gauge you are looking at about a 3/4 to 1 ounce load for general purpose shooting. I've seen where some have gone as heavy as 1 1/2 ounces of shot. At 1 1/2 ounces, you are not going to have much velocity if shooting a safe powder charge, although it would probably make a good turkey load. A 12 gauge on the other hand can easily handle a 1 1/2 ounce payload with good velocity. It is my opinion that the idea of a square load is a simple way of eliminating having to bring another shot measure. While using equal volumes of shot and powder often produces a good load, I've never found it to be anything special. "Less powder, more lead, shoots farther, kills dead." That's a saying that holds a lot of merit. I'm basing this on both the pattern board and hunting. Shot stringing is another area some look at. I'm not particularly concerned about it as much as some, and in the case of 20 vs 12 gauge, the differences are not as great as you would think. See the following link for tests done by Federal Premium. The Truth About Shotgun Ammo: 6 Questions Answered at Federal's High-Tech Range.

Take note that in 12 gauge, the 3 1/2" load carrying more shot did not have a notable difference in shot string length than the 3". The same is true for the 1 ounce 20 gauge vs 1 ounce 12 gauge. While I realize this is modern shotgun ammunition, the same principles apply to muzzleloaders. You might notice that the 12 gauge patterned tighter than the 20 gauge, but I think this is likely more to do with the particular gun. Change guns, and the results could be swapped.

So what's stopping you from putting 2 ounces of shot in a 20 gauge? Velocity, at least from a fowler barrel. To use such a heavy payload, would require a low amount of powder to keep things safe. The result would be pathetic velocity. The 12 gauge on the other hand could handle a 2 ounce payload, although it is getting to be about topped out there. My Pedersoli 10 gauge, is in reality an 11 gauge. With 2 ounces of shot, and 100 grains of powder, velocity is 900 fps at the muzzle. That load worked great on turkeys, and would work on flying birds too, but it is getting on the slow side.

The other factor is choke, which is a post civil war invention. To remain truely PC, would require a cylinder bore. That Pedersoli I mentioned is a cylinder bore in both barrels, and let me say that I needed all the shot I could get for turkeys. I ended up shooting my turkey real close at about 10 yards, so anything would have worked. If it hadn't though, my maximum range was 25 yards, and not one yard past that. I really doubt you are going to be able to get an effective turkey hunting pattern from a cylinder bore 20 gauge at that, and even 20 yards might be pushing it. As a wing gun though, you don't need nearly the same pattern, and a 20 would be quite effective in that role.

The only real drawback to the 12 is weight and bulk. In a single barreled fowler, the bulk wouldn't really be a factor either. I'd say go for the 12 gauge, and wouldn't discount a 10 either.

Check out Mike Belevue you tube video and loading the 20 gauge fowler. After testing the old myth the square load, which showed to many holes in the pattern. He then went with a 110 grains of FFg and 2 ounces of shot. This proved to be a stout load but a very effective one. I have since went to the heavy load and found it to be a perfect load out to 35-40 yards for bird hunting. No holes in the pattern,, and yes it kicks pretty good but I am 69 years young and I can handle it without much problem.

 

[WALT53]

Just a random thought.... and I can’t prove it but I suspect it. Twelve is an important number. Twelve tribes of Israel 144,000 of the elect(12x12x1000), twelve sacred law tablets of Rome, twelve men on a jury, twelve months in a year ect.
The Bess was made 75-77 cal. I suspect this originally was to let twelve ball to a pound, 72 cal, easily fit in the bore, even though many bess ball was cast smaller, when loaded in a military cartradge.

 

[Art Caputo]

So have any of you guys taken turkey with a 20 bore/gauge with no choke?

Yes. 20ga. Fowler with Cylinder choke is effective on turkey to 20-25 yards using 1 ounce of #6 shot. It will also place its shots using a parched LRB in <2” at 50 yards My buddy has taken several turkeys with the same shot load load with his 58 smooth rifle.