209 primer for a sidelock????

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bavarialand

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has anyone ever tried to covert a #11 or musket nipple to use #209 primers? would be interesting to try, it would eliminate alot of misfires. of course you would have to make the nipple from tool steel and put a pin or knob inside the hammer or make a custom hammer.
 
You know, I had wondered the same thing, but I think that a 209 primer would be hard to stay in a nipple cup from the pressure. I know a 209 primer creates a lot more pressure than a no.11 cap.Maybe someone has perfected a setup for it. I would like to see one myself. :hmm:
 
Thank you Sean. That info was awesome! I think it looks like a dependable setup, although it may require more time to reload. Do you know if it does? Have you ever used one?
 
If you use real black powder, I think you will find that there really is no need for a 209 primer. I find very consistant reliable ignition with a # 11 cap, in my percussion sidelocks, when using black powder. I do have on three of my percussion sidelocks, musket cap nipples. I had put these on back in my Pyrodex/substitute days. The musket cap seemed to help with hangfire, when using these sub powders. I left the musket cap nipples on these ML's, and again, they work great with real black powder. Now when I buy a ML, if it has a # 11 ignition, I use it. Of course your results may vary, and this is just MHO.
 
Thompson Center made a side lock that would take a 209 shotgun primer. It was a synthetic stocked Renegade that had the special breech to accept the primers and a more direct ignition.

I don't believe they are made anymore.
 
I think that if a 209 is needed for a side lock, that there is something wrong with the rifle, or the loading. Just my opinion.
 
Dixie sells a nipple that holds a small rifle primer in place with a spring. I had one and it worked ok but I've settled on CCI #11 magnum for my use. I've heard that the new Remington primers have up to 40% more spark.

What the others are telling you is true. You generally don't need all the additional blast when using black powder. The additional blast from a 209 may even harm accuracy.
 
bigbore442001 said:
Thompson Center made a side lock that would take a 209 shotgun primer. It was a synthetic stocked Renegade that had the special breech to accept the primers and a more direct ignition.

I don't believe they are made anymore.
You are (mostly) correct.

The TC Firestorm was offered in a 209 sidelock for a while, but it didn't sell and was discontinued.

While it was synthetic stocked, like all Firestorms, the breech was identical to the one in my Firestorm Flinter - i.e. a cone that (supposedly) offsets a Pyrodex Pellet enough that it aligns the BP patch with the touch hole and allows for consistant sidelock ignition (See the TC Arms website). I wouldn't know about the pellets, but it works fine with Granular BP in Flint and is easy to clean.

I think they were trying to pull a fast one on the side-lock only seasons and get better substitute ignition. Didn't work, but thei Flinter is a good gun.
 
Before anyone spends money " improving" the priming ignition on their rifle, please take the time to fire a primer only on your rifle at night, with the barrel pointed down towards some grass or leaf stems and leaves. You should see a flame come out of the barrel of your percussion gun, no matter how long it is, that will be at least 10 inches longer than the barrel, and the air pushed in front of the blast will blow over the grass or leaves. Don't do this with dry grass, or you may start a small fire.

The current primers are more than hot enough to ignite a dry powder charge of real Black Powder. I can not say the same with some of the substitutes, which admittedly have higher ignition temeratures.

The problem with using magnum primers in anything( no matter what they are called by a manufacturer) is that the primer itself may actually push the PRB or conical down the bore a short distance before the powder is consumed and turned into an expanding gas. When this happens, you will get a wife variation is chamber pressures, and a resulting wider diversity of velocities, shot for shot. Remember, with the PRB, there is not much contact being made with the barrel, or inertia, to overcome. The last thing you want in a PRB gun is for the ball to be moving up the barrel differing amounts, depending on the strength of that magnum primer, and before the main charge gases expand and begin their push down the barrel.

As for using modern primers in percussion guns, psitol primers have been used with a similar device shown above, by the under hammer slug gun shooters for years. Yes, it does take more time to load and fire the gun, because you have to unscrew the cap, remove the spent primer, replace the primer after loading with a new one, and screw back on the cap again. But, it does retain the primer, and the slug gun shooters, particularly in the larger calibers, get very even, and small SDV from their guns. Because the primer goes directly into the barrel, the slug gun shooters have no need for rifle primers. On a side lock, particular ly those with a drum and nipple arrangement, you may have to use rifle primers to get consistent ignition. I doubt it, but it would be something to try out over a chronograph. Standard pistol primers are very hot as they are. I again see no reason to use magnum primers, and at least one good reason not to do so.
 
wow, thanks for all the info. guys. i'm not going to use the 209 setup i was just wondering if anyone had inveted it and if it worked or not. although if i were to go on a long hunting trip i might want one as a back up in case of a multi-day bad weather event. the powder always seems to get wet. Dave
 
Make a point of taking your gun out to the range some day when it is pouring down rain in buckets. Shoot the gun. You will soon find out how to keep the powder dry, and to protect your gun from the rain. Do the same thing with below freezing temperatures, if you ever contemplate hunting in that kind of weather. You learn not to lubricate your patches with spit, and use oil based lubes instead. You learn how to watch that muzzle so you don't get snow in it, to be a bore obstruction. And, you learn what you have to do to keep that action working in sub-freezing temperatures- get rid of the oil, and use alcohol to make sure there is no grease or oil to congeal in your lock!

Forget the modern guns with the 209 primers. They have the same problems in the rain and cold as traditional BP firearms do. Some of the BP substitutes actually soak up water from the air faster than does Black Powder. Something to remember.

But, please, don't take my word on this. Get out and run your own tests. I hunted all day in fog and mist, and while the guys hunting the property with percussion guns could not get their charges to fire, My Flintlock went off the first time I fired it to unload the gun at the end of the day. I even had to " loan " some priming powder to the percussion guys to put under their nipples, so they could empty the guns. Its not that one system is better than the other; it is rather that my friends had never learned how to keep their powder dry in their percussion rifles, and, some didn't know they had to even think about it, since they were not shooting flintlocks! If you can't figure it out on your own, PM me and I will share the " secrets" with you.

Paul
 
This is the model that uses rifle primers.

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