I was wondering what your thoughts were about a target load for your flinter. I am getting all my ducks in a row and finally found a source of Goex. I will be going to the range this weekend to try out the new rifle. Thanks to all of you.
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3F or 4F for the main charge?
- Thread starter JJB22
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WV MZL HUNTER
45 Cal.
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JJB22 said:
3F FOR MAIN CHARGE
4F FOR PRIMING ONLY!
Assuming you're using PRBs, "the caliber" as a powder charge is usually a good general purpose target load...ie: in my .50cal I use 50grns Goex 3F...but for close 25 yard targets 40, even 30grns of 3F does fine.
4F is made as a priming powder, very fast ignition with a correspondingly fast pressure spike and is not normally used as a main charge.
4F is made as a priming powder, very fast ignition with a correspondingly fast pressure spike and is not normally used as a main charge.
JJB22
Welcome to the forum.
As the others have said, 4F is used for priming only.
Actually, many of us have found that 3Fg works almost as fast for priming as 4F and for that reason we use 3Fg for both the main charge and for priming the pan.
Doing this eliminates the need to buy 4F powder and allows us to put our money into buying twice as much 3Fg.
You didn't mention the caliber of your rifle but the old saying was to use 3Fg for the main powder charge if the caliber was smaller than a .50 and use 2Fg if it was a .50 caliber or larger.
Most of the powder charges are based on that idea so if a book says to use 70 grains of powder in a .50 caliber gun it us usually speaking of 2Fg powder.
That said, many have found that using 3Fg even in larger caliber guns works very well and often reduces the amount of fouling a shot will leave in the bore. They usually reduce the 2Fg powder load about 10 percent if they are replacing it with 3Fg.
In the example given above that would make a 2Fg powder charge 70 grains or a 3Fg powder charge about 63 grains.
One of the nice things about black powder is that it is somewhat forgiving and the difference between a 63 grain load and a 60 grain load will scarcely be noticed.
Welcome to the forum.
As the others have said, 4F is used for priming only.
Actually, many of us have found that 3Fg works almost as fast for priming as 4F and for that reason we use 3Fg for both the main charge and for priming the pan.
Doing this eliminates the need to buy 4F powder and allows us to put our money into buying twice as much 3Fg.
You didn't mention the caliber of your rifle but the old saying was to use 3Fg for the main powder charge if the caliber was smaller than a .50 and use 2Fg if it was a .50 caliber or larger.
Most of the powder charges are based on that idea so if a book says to use 70 grains of powder in a .50 caliber gun it us usually speaking of 2Fg powder.
That said, many have found that using 3Fg even in larger caliber guns works very well and often reduces the amount of fouling a shot will leave in the bore. They usually reduce the 2Fg powder load about 10 percent if they are replacing it with 3Fg.
In the example given above that would make a 2Fg powder charge 70 grains or a 3Fg powder charge about 63 grains.
One of the nice things about black powder is that it is somewhat forgiving and the difference between a 63 grain load and a 60 grain load will scarcely be noticed.
Johnny Tremain
Silversmith in training
Hmm no mention of caliber.
4f pan only, no brainer
50 cal below 3f
50 cal above 2f
Ive used 2f in my 45 in a pinch.
4f pan only, no brainer
50 cal below 3f
50 cal above 2f
Ive used 2f in my 45 in a pinch.
Sorry guys, I have a 45 cal and will be shooting round ball with it. I thought I might try to use 3f for both priming and main charge. I have a Siler lock and the flash hole is standard at this time, I could open it up a little if need be but I plan to work the rifle as is as much as I can, I hate doing something that is not reversible (well without a lot of trouble). I found the powder within 30 miles of the house and the shop has both 3 and 4 F powder so I can get what I need without too much trouble. Thank you for the advice.
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welcome to the wonderful world of blackpowder! i agree with the consensus that you should leave the 4F for pan priming only. as regards the never- ending discussion of 2F vs. 3F, i would get a can of each and see what your rifle likes best. you will no doubt find a good home for the powder you rifle doesn't like. considering the current political climate, you may want to get as much Goex as you can afford since (a) it's probably not going to get cheaper and (b) there's always some fool who wants to ban everything, including anything that goes bang. (OK- that's the end of the tirade)
you may also want to get a copy of the Dutch Schoultz method. it's $15 very well spent.
make good smoke!
you may also want to get a copy of the Dutch Schoultz method. it's $15 very well spent.
make good smoke!
Mark Lewis said:
This may come to you as a heck of a shock Mark, but "NO", you don't shoot 3F no matter what the caliber...... :shake:
Chambers Pressures DO matter.
Powder Brands DO matter.
Load Volumes of the Grade of powder DO matter.
The type of Projectiles & all of the above DO matter.
Different grades of powder are made for a REASON....... Not just how it happened to come out....
Have you ever noticed that manufacturers have Min & Max load data for their ML's. Have you ever noticed they are different for the Projectile style, rate of twist, length of barrel, powder brand, grade of powder, etc, etc, etc ?
That data it there for a Reason, not just because the people want to print paper. :shake:longfowler
40 Cal.
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Yup, I've used 3f for everything, up to & including my 12 gauge - I just use less than max in the big guns, like Zonie says!
Because you have failed to blow your gun or yourself up is not validation for others to try it. :shake:
People that make Black Powder & distribute it would be a good source of info. on what is SAFE for caliber. They DO have the proper documented test & test facilities to test what they make & publish.
Here is the data from The Main Powder House.
Maine Powder House
If you look on there individual powders, it tells you for what caliber. I would say they DO know what they are talking about, & I have a tendency to lean towards what they recommend, rather than trying the "One size fits all" theory.
This is not saying that any powder in any caliber will not work, we are talking about what is considered SAFE in what caliber & what the Experts suggest to Keep You Safe.
IMHO, Your statement of 3F in any caliber is not correct, definitely Unsafe, and because YOU survived it doesn't make it safe. :shake:
People that make Black Powder & distribute it would be a good source of info. on what is SAFE for caliber. They DO have the proper documented test & test facilities to test what they make & publish.
Here is the data from The Main Powder House.
Maine Powder House
If you look on there individual powders, it tells you for what caliber. I would say they DO know what they are talking about, & I have a tendency to lean towards what they recommend, rather than trying the "One size fits all" theory.
This is not saying that any powder in any caliber will not work, we are talking about what is considered SAFE in what caliber & what the Experts suggest to Keep You Safe.
IMHO, Your statement of 3F in any caliber is not correct, definitely Unsafe, and because YOU survived it doesn't make it safe. :shake:
That very well may be true, but you can't just throw out the books, all the testing & facts....
That would be like saying "Load 3F Swiss in Anything, it is safe".....
Well, it is Not safe in everything.... And Newbies need correct & SAFE information. IMHO
:hmm:
That would be like saying "Load 3F Swiss in Anything, it is safe".....
Well, it is Not safe in everything.... And Newbies need correct & SAFE information. IMHO
:hmm:
Actually, there is quite a bit of mis-information thrown out on the Internet as gospel...this is but one example...we were all newbies at some point and should all know that as a newbie its impossible to tell the difference from fact and mis-information, and impossible to realize a nuance might have been implied in a discussion.
IMO, in this case the prudent thing to do is always assume there's potential danger as faster burning granulations have faster pressure spikes, and across the board statements about 3F being OK to be used with anything needs to be further qualified.
IE: a newbie might read that...look in some load chart somewhere and see 120grn max load shown for Goex 2F...and simply substitute 3F because a post had been made saying "it was OK"...so in effect he's now shooting the equivalent of 135-140grns 2F...still might not result in a serious injury or damaged gun, but then again it might...based upon all the unknowns involved with whatever the newbie might be trying to do at the time.
IMO, posts like this across the board statement should at least include caveats about reducing 2F load data by 15%...and the subject has become even more entangled with other powders coming on the scene like Swiss which is even faster yet...so even larger percentage reductions should be mentioned when substituting that type powder.
We are all responsibile for helping to police statements like these...it is not a matter of "trying to be right"...or "having to be right"...it is simply a matter of being correct and not allowing mis-information to slide by unchallenged and uncorrected.
IMO, in this case the prudent thing to do is always assume there's potential danger as faster burning granulations have faster pressure spikes, and across the board statements about 3F being OK to be used with anything needs to be further qualified.
IE: a newbie might read that...look in some load chart somewhere and see 120grn max load shown for Goex 2F...and simply substitute 3F because a post had been made saying "it was OK"...so in effect he's now shooting the equivalent of 135-140grns 2F...still might not result in a serious injury or damaged gun, but then again it might...based upon all the unknowns involved with whatever the newbie might be trying to do at the time.
IMO, posts like this across the board statement should at least include caveats about reducing 2F load data by 15%...and the subject has become even more entangled with other powders coming on the scene like Swiss which is even faster yet...so even larger percentage reductions should be mentioned when substituting that type powder.
We are all responsibile for helping to police statements like these...it is not a matter of "trying to be right"...or "having to be right"...it is simply a matter of being correct and not allowing mis-information to slide by unchallenged and uncorrected.
paulvallandigham
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If you pay attention to the posts here, you realize that " common sense" is often in short supply! :cursing: :surrender: :rotf: :rotf: :haha:
For a manufacturer to post a clear warning on a bottle or can of 4Fg powder saying: " For Priming Flintlock ONLY" is the only common sense thing the manufacturer can do.
Not all guns are custom made by reputable gunmakers. Those that are are built well enough to protect the shooter from all kinds of mishaps.
Those that are NOT, should NEVER be overloaded, or loaded with the wrong powder.
Newbies should not be expected to know the difference.
MOST guns will be able to withstand the higher pressures created by using 3Fg powder in them, instead of 2Fg. However, that does not mean they shoot the most accurately in all calibers when 3Fg powder is used. And, safety can be a concern.
All you need to see just ONCE is a nipple flying up out of a gun with any load, or a 3 foot flame exiting the vent hole on any flintlock to know that too much of a good thing is still TOO MUCH.
In one of my earliest experiences with BP, I was watching my brother shoot his New .40 caliber rifle, when the nipple in the barrel came back and over all our heads. We found the nipple, but not the flash cup. The company had put the wrong size threaded nipple in the gun. My brother continued his interest in BP shooting. I did not go back to it for another 15 years! He was only shooting 40 grains of 3Fg powder in that .40 cal. rifle when the nipple sprouted wings.
I later witnessed the " flame thrower " flintlock at my club range, when a member burned out his vent hole. He was loading way too much powder in the gun, until that incident. A vent liner was installed and he was given recommended powder charges for the gun. He began using them, and shot much better groups, and began winning shoots. He admitted he liked shooting the gun much better when it wasn't beating him to death. He even tried 2Fg powder in the gun and found it to be very accurate, and more consistent for him. I believe the gun was .54 or .58 caliber.
For a manufacturer to post a clear warning on a bottle or can of 4Fg powder saying: " For Priming Flintlock ONLY" is the only common sense thing the manufacturer can do.
Not all guns are custom made by reputable gunmakers. Those that are are built well enough to protect the shooter from all kinds of mishaps.
Those that are NOT, should NEVER be overloaded, or loaded with the wrong powder.
Newbies should not be expected to know the difference.
MOST guns will be able to withstand the higher pressures created by using 3Fg powder in them, instead of 2Fg. However, that does not mean they shoot the most accurately in all calibers when 3Fg powder is used. And, safety can be a concern.
All you need to see just ONCE is a nipple flying up out of a gun with any load, or a 3 foot flame exiting the vent hole on any flintlock to know that too much of a good thing is still TOO MUCH.
In one of my earliest experiences with BP, I was watching my brother shoot his New .40 caliber rifle, when the nipple in the barrel came back and over all our heads. We found the nipple, but not the flash cup. The company had put the wrong size threaded nipple in the gun. My brother continued his interest in BP shooting. I did not go back to it for another 15 years! He was only shooting 40 grains of 3Fg powder in that .40 cal. rifle when the nipple sprouted wings.
I later witnessed the " flame thrower " flintlock at my club range, when a member burned out his vent hole. He was loading way too much powder in the gun, until that incident. A vent liner was installed and he was given recommended powder charges for the gun. He began using them, and shot much better groups, and began winning shoots. He admitted he liked shooting the gun much better when it wasn't beating him to death. He even tried 2Fg powder in the gun and found it to be very accurate, and more consistent for him. I believe the gun was .54 or .58 caliber.
Kind of like, why is Douglas Barrels no longer making muzzleloader barrels? The way I heard it, someone went off in thier own direction with what powder to load with and there ended up being a law suit. Because of that, we lost a barrel vendor. Why would anyone go against the printed rules? Then when they do go against known safety rules and something happens, they want sympathy. Or, if nothing does happen, that it means to them, that it is ok, or are they just lucky? Then they profess their good luck fortune and encourage others to play their game of Russian roulette. All are correct, in that this stuff is put in print for reasons. One, is the safety factor, the other is the lawsuit factor. Which one do you feel luckiest with? I think real black powder is getting too scarce and I may use the other powders that come in IMR, Hodgdon or Accurate cans. :youcrazy: I never cared much for my appearance, my hands or the nerds shooting around me. It is my gun, I will do what I want. :surrender:
I agree that a poorly made gun is liable to cause a problem. But that seems to be beside the point, since a poorly made gun is liable to blow up with ANY load.
I also agree with others that 3F is safe if a reasonable load (less than a reasonable 2F load). I do not use 3F exclusively now, but I have in the past. It only requires some conservative judgement, just like 2F does.
YHS,
rawdog
I also agree with others that 3F is safe if a reasonable load (less than a reasonable 2F load). I do not use 3F exclusively now, but I have in the past. It only requires some conservative judgement, just like 2F does.
YHS,
rawdog
shdwlkr
40 Cal.
I am one of those that most often uses 3f in all my muzzle loaders but once I go up from my 36 caliber the loads get to be a lot less then when using 2F. Most of the time my rule is to use 15-20% less 3F then I would use if I were using 2F.
Now if you are stupid enough to use the same amount of power when using 3F as you would use when using 2F then your are going to get hurt sooner or later.
I don't ever use a really heavy charge of 3f in my 50 or 54 caliber muzzle loader. If I am going for a heavy charge then I use 2F why because that is what I have found that works in my muzzle loaders. I usually stop using 3F when I want a charge that is more then 70 grains of 3F because that is a charge of 84-85 grains of 2F and that is most often as heavy as I go period.
I watched and idiot once put over 70 grains of 3F in his 36 caliber and was surprised it didn't come apart on him. I have never used more then 50 grains in mine and most of the time it is more like 40 or even less.
One thing that has to be remembered is not all muzzle loading firearms are made the same and even the ones that do follow the better rules make a bad one and I don 't want to be the one behind it when it comes apart.
As to the use of 3F in a muzzle loader that says 2F is the powder to use if you can do the math and use 15-20% less 3F then you would of 2F I would really like to see the pressure differences and I am not sure they are that far apart.
As to newbie's here or on any of the sites that relate to firearm use you are totally correct we need to make sure we do tell the whole story but to say that this or that will not work in a given firearm as long as you stay inside the pressure curve for the firearm is saying that you don't really understand your sport.
I expect I might get flamed for my views but I have been at this for 40 years and keep backing down on my charges because I know the distance I am shooting and what I want for energy of the bullet when it gets there and don't need anymore as it is a waste of powder and also makes cleanup more work which I don't need.
Now if you are stupid enough to use the same amount of power when using 3F as you would use when using 2F then your are going to get hurt sooner or later.
I don't ever use a really heavy charge of 3f in my 50 or 54 caliber muzzle loader. If I am going for a heavy charge then I use 2F why because that is what I have found that works in my muzzle loaders. I usually stop using 3F when I want a charge that is more then 70 grains of 3F because that is a charge of 84-85 grains of 2F and that is most often as heavy as I go period.
I watched and idiot once put over 70 grains of 3F in his 36 caliber and was surprised it didn't come apart on him. I have never used more then 50 grains in mine and most of the time it is more like 40 or even less.
One thing that has to be remembered is not all muzzle loading firearms are made the same and even the ones that do follow the better rules make a bad one and I don 't want to be the one behind it when it comes apart.
As to the use of 3F in a muzzle loader that says 2F is the powder to use if you can do the math and use 15-20% less 3F then you would of 2F I would really like to see the pressure differences and I am not sure they are that far apart.
As to newbie's here or on any of the sites that relate to firearm use you are totally correct we need to make sure we do tell the whole story but to say that this or that will not work in a given firearm as long as you stay inside the pressure curve for the firearm is saying that you don't really understand your sport.
I expect I might get flamed for my views but I have been at this for 40 years and keep backing down on my charges because I know the distance I am shooting and what I want for energy of the bullet when it gets there and don't need anymore as it is a waste of powder and also makes cleanup more work which I don't need.
