3rd time not the charm

[Sean Gadhar]

So I was shooting my .54 English Sporting Rifle today. Trying out different patch cloth.

Thought I was doing everything the same each time. shot a fouling round. Then 3 shots at each target same powder, same RB, swabbed after each shot, spit lubed each patch the same. But have a look each time with 4 different patches my 3rd shot is the farthest off target. :hmm: Any Ideas??

 

[Turtle Creek]

Don't have enough info.
What distance and what type of shooting...supported/unsupported?
If I have grouping issues the first thing I do is shoot at 25 meters supported to ID any rifle not shooter issues.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

50 yards supported on a sandbag at balance point, butt on my shoulder elbows on the bench.

 

[Herb]

Sean, thanks for stopping to say hello at my Bridger seminar up at Fort Bridger Sunday. Sorry I didn't recognize you, I confused you with someone I met two weeks ago after a few years and he looked like you. I did not have the trouble with the English Sporting rifle that you show. Just looked at my chronograph book, and most groups looked good. For other readers, this rifle has a 32" Rice round bottom groove Jaeger barrel with a Chambers English Fowler flintlock. The barrel is as good as there is. I shot nine targets from rest at 50 yards and the best round groups came with 80 grains of Goex 2F or Olde Eynsford 2F and 1 1/2F. Loads of 50 grains of Goex 3F or Olde Eynsford 3F the rifle did not group as well. I probably gave you my test targets, but for others, here is charge and velocity: All balls are Hornady .530, all charges are from weight-calibrated individual measures except the first two from an antler, about 52 grains.

52 grains Goex 3F, .021/.009(crushed reading) tan linen patching, 8 shots gave 1253 fps. Patches holed. Round group, OK.

52 grains Olde Eynsford 3F, .022/.014 linen, patches holed, 7 shots 1341 fps. Group larger. I had a cleaning patch on the seating jag and wiped the bore between groups.

80 gr Goex 2F (all measures calibrated to individual charges and powders) .021/.014 soft canvas used from here on. Patch on jag also. 6 shots 1506 fps. Tight round group.

80 gr OldeE 2F, ditto above, 5 shots 1534 fps,good group.

80 gr OldeE 1 1/2F ditto above, 6 shots 1510 fps, good group after first shot fouled the cleaned bore.

50 gr Goex 3F, ditto above, 6 shots 1222, open group.

50 gr OldeE 3F, ditto above, 5 shots 1225 fps, group strung vertically.

80 gr OldeE 3F ditto above, 5 shots 1556 fps, big group.

100 gr OldeE 1 1/2F, ditto above, 5 shots 1703 fps, had to reuse one patch (ran out), good group.

My issue with this rifle was that I could not shoot it well off-hand, and that is what I needed it for. So I built a 32" 1 1/8 x 1" GRRW barreled flintlock with a 12 1/4" LOP weighing 9 3/4 pounds, basically a copy of my Jim Bridger rifle which I shoot very well off-hand. The Sporting rifle weighs about 7 1/2 pounds.

If I did not give you my test targets, let me know and I'll find them and send them to you.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

Good seeing you as well, what with thousands of people there I don't blame you for needing a second to pick me out :grin:

I do have your test targets & I shot it well both there & here. I am going to do the whole patch test over some time this week & see if it changes. The range was busy & a vary loud center fire rife with muzzle brake was going off one bench down.

:hmm: Just seems so odd that my 3rd shot is the farthest off target each target four targets in a row.

I also forgot my patch knife ( while testing strip patches! I know :slap: ) and had to saw away a bit with a rather less then keen edged pocket knife.

It might be as simple as I got a glitch in my head & over thought the 3rd shot each time :idunno:

 

[Don Steele]

I'm thinking there's an inconsistency in your loading/wiping process that's causing the barrel to "see different conditions" by the 3rd shot.
"spit patching" ( if that means what I think it does..) is not a consistent way to lube patches.
I'd also recommend you re-visit your wiping procedure between shots. Your results indicate that what you are doing is less effective than you think it is, allowing the barrel to foul, and throwing the third shot. Have you stayed on the same target for 5, 6, or more shots to see what a representative group looks like..??? 3 shots doesn't establish much.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I agree with Mr. Steele, and I also wonder why one, with a Rice barrel, would need a fouling shot to begin the shooting process? I'd say start with an immaculate clean barrel, omit hte fouling shot, and do a thorough wipe between each shot.

LD

 

[Sean Gadhar]

I think it is something in my process as well.

At the range I thought it might be the unsharp knife & that I might be pulling as I cut. My holes in the strips were somewhat oval. I am new to cutting patch at the muzzle, so I don't know how off round the hole left should be :idunno:
there was enough wind I was unable to find shot patches. Range was near full so I didn't spend a lot of time looking when range was cold.

The fouling shot was for consistency. I was testing patch cloth, so I thought each shot should come after swabbing the last shot (even the 1st test shot)

That it was the 3rd shot being the flyer might just be a fluke.

Herb This was with .526 balls from TOTW. I have .530 that I will test with each patching as well.

 

[jamesthomas]

I'm a firm believer in the 5 shot group, 3 shots does not tell the tale. Also If this is going to be a hunting rifle I would use a good lube (Tracks Mink oil is what I use) to sight it in. Also try Hoppe's no.9 blackpowder lube for plinking. I've never really gotten good groups using spit as a lube.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hi,
My first question is, what do the patches look like? Every one should be the same, if not. Why not? Patches should be good enough to use again, except you should see rifling image on the patch. If not, your ball and patch combination is too loose.
Second question, what does the crown look like?
Should be funnel like with an even polished roll over.
Third question: Is the ball and patch reasonably tight. If it is too loose, your groups will be pattern like and not a tight knit group.
Try shooting a quarter sized target at thirteen ( 13 ) yards. Five shots should be in the same hole. Between shots, do not correct for center, shoot for one hole group.
If you are shooting a scattered group, that tells you that there is a loading problem, and eliminates human error.
So give it a try, and tell us where you're at.
Best regards
Fred

 

[Herb]

I posted photos of this rifle and the test targets on July 17th. Here they are.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1411257/

 

[Billnpatti]

This is one for Dutch Schoultz. I hope he sees this posting and jumps in with his solution. He'll be able to tell you what is wrong.

 

[Rifleman1776]

with 4 different patches

That and the use of spit for lube is a clue to me of what makes those targets inconsistent. I'm not a fan of spit for lube even though others differ.
Reminds me of my recent thread 'Changing things changes things'.
Judging from here, find a lube you like, a patch that fits properly and try again.
OTOH, some would trade their first born for targets that good. :wink:

 

[jamesthomas]

What was your patch cloth? I noticed Herb used Soft Canvas I would try some .018 pillow ticking myself. Also what is the groove depth on that rifle?

 

[ZUG]

The next time you go to the range and do some sighting-in instead of placing the forearm on the sand bag place your hand on the forearm as you would normally grip the rifle then rest the back of your forearm on the sand bag. You may be getting some "bounce" when the rifle fires thus opening up your groups. I've had this happen both with muzzle loaders and cartridge guns. Unless you have a ROCK SOLID rest you will get movement in the rifle when it discharges. Give it a try you have nothing to loose :hmm: .

 

[EC121]

I'm with Zug. Rest the rifle solidly at the muzzle for grouping then rest it on your hand later for duplicating hunting conditions.

 

[BrownBear]

I dunno that Rice barrel from a licorice pipe, so this is purely out-on-a-limb speculation based on experience with other brands.

I'm wondering if between you and Herb shooting, you've reached some kind of "break-in" point that's smoothed the bore enough you're needing to move to a slightly thicker patch.

Only reason I ask, I've seen other new barrels' groups go to poop after 100-200 shots. Moving up a little in ball diameter or patch thickness brought things back to order.

If that's the case my experience and instinct say it's a positive sign. When I made the swap, the barrel really settled down and shot better than ever.

 

[jamesthomas]

That's a good point, also if the rifle has .012 grooves that .014 patch will be to loose. I use a .024 Mattress Ticking patch in my .50 cal. with .012 square grooves and a .490 round ball.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

First let me thank you all for the thoughts & Ideas. I will use some of the suggestions (5 shot rather then 3 shot group, closer target then 50 yards etc.

Some where the topic seems to have wandered a little bit.

So I was shooting my .54 English Sporting Rifle today. Trying out different patch cloth.

I guess I should have been more clear.

I am shooting .526 balls not .530 I was Not trying to duplicate Herb's load but rather, exploring other loads with my new rifle.

There are 4 targets because there are 4 patch materials, each slightly different in thickness when crushed. It was patch material that I was changing because I was looking for a .526 ball & patch combo.

As this is not a worked up load but just the beginning I expected differing results as I changed patching. What I did not expect, and asked about was the fact that in each string of 3 shots, my 3rd shot was the farthest off target 4 times in a row.

 

[ohio ramrod]

To save a lot of time, powder , and lead I suggest you get the "Dutch Schultz" system and go through it. I found that he says very simply what took me over twenty years to learn on my own. Consistency is the key and he goes through step by step how to obtain accuracy through consistency. Plus he is a nice guy to communicate with! :hmm: :idunno: