.40 cal conicals

[TANSTAAFL]

What got me was the .45 auto RN bullet has such a short bearing surface with the nose unsupported. But sized to .451", they engraved nicely, and as stated, accuracy was excellent.

I don't have the particulars as to bullet diameter, but you might try Rebel's suggestion for the S&W .40 cal.

 

[Russianblood]

I have some Hornady 90gr .314 hollow based wadcutter bullets I thought about trying in my .32 cal mule ear.

If you go to MidwayUSA and look under pistol bullets for 41 cal, they may have some that would work for conicals in a .40 cal. Check out this one:[url] http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=570204[/url]

 

[roundball]

Thanks for that tip...says it's .385 diameter.

Ohio Rusty was saying his .380's are tack drivers in a .40cal simply patched with a .010" lubed patch...eliminates leading too.

These might do the same...if I don't hear back from him, I might order a box of these and experiment.

 

[arilar]

Stevebert 1,
I have a nice rifle with fast twist in cal. .40.

Got a semi-custom mold made from www.mountainmolds. com.

Came out as this

Works great! Why not you order one made exactly as you want it!! Just my 2 cents.
Regards,
ARILAR

 

[stevebert1]

One of our forum members has generously offered to send me a handful of his conical bullets to try. If they don't work out, I'll definitely call Ray Rapine and check out[url] mountainmoulds.com[/url].

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I see Lee makes a 175 grain SWC .401" (shoot as cast) with the shallow multi grooved (five) tumble lubed (liquid Alox) mould, but could be lubed with soft BP lube. It is for the .40 SW, (Rebel suggested such) comes in double or six cavity mould. TL401-175-SWC

Pic at link. [url] http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/l410175s.gif[/url]

 

[crockett]

I asked the same question a while back and was reminded that some frontiersmen used even smaller calibers such as .36 and killed bear(so I am told)
I supose it depends on the distance of the shot since a PRB loses velocity pretty fast, plus shot placement. I think someone once killed a grizzly bear with a 25ACP shot between the eyes at point blank (so I am told).

 

[Herb]

I tried these before but did not have a good lube. Got 30 more today, cast in a six cavity Lee mold, pure lead. They average about .403 diameter and about 183 grains weight. Will try them again soon. The first time I tried them, lubed them with Natural Lube 1000, kinda messy. They loaded easy, using a short starter, but were not accurate. This I attribute to poor lubrication, but I shot them in a 1-66 twist 38" Rice barrel. (Most .40's are 1-48" which will stabilize the bullet more).

70 grains of Goex 3F averaged 1730 fps for 5 shots, 57 fps spread (first shot slowest, which is normal). Last four averaged 1740 fps with only 18 fps spread. Then I cleaned the bore. Next shot was 1683 fps, again slowest, five averaged 1731 fps with 75 fps spread. Last four averaged 1743 fps with 28 fps spread. My notes in my chronograph book say "Two shots on aim, then wild. Need to clean between shots." I'll shoot them in a 1-48 twist soon, with SPG (?) lube. I think they will work very well.

Have used double patched balls in .40's, and they work very well. But you really have to do the loading exactly right and not have any ball separation in the load. Same rifle, 70 grains of Goex 3F, .380 cast ball, patch was thick blue/white Wal Mart awning. Five shots averaged 2201 fps, 36 spread. Same load BUT double patched balls, velocity was 1765 with 9 fps spread. Fine accuracy.

Same single ball load but using 70 grains of Swiss 3F, seven shots averaged 2361 fps, 40 spread. Then same load BUT patched double balls, 1863 sps, 15 spread.

Same single ball load, using Swiss 2F, six shots averaged 2271 fps, 41 spread. Then, using double patched balls, 1784 fps, 18 spread. The reason for the relatively heavy 70 grain loads is that the double balls drop 430 to 500 fps, though they shoot near the same point of aim at 50 yards. Yes, double patched balls can work very well, but do not use them unless you have a really good reason, and then make absolutely certain both balls are down, and STAY down. (I seat the first patched ball, then the second patched ball).

My reason for using them was to find a load that could be used for deer. Here in Utah we have to have at least 150 grains ball weight in a ML for deer. The .40 ball weighs about 93 grains. The game warden suggested using double balls. This was for Carole, in a rifle I made to fit her. She has a .50 TC, but it has too long a trigger reach and she cannot start a ball with her weaker hands. Has to have Carl load it for her, not an ideal hunting set up. She shoots her little .40 all year, is very good with it, and has killed enough deer with MLs and centerfire rifles that she knows what she is doing. But we did not have a conical bullet, thus the experimenting.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Sounds like you are on the right track with good records for checking results.

You are right about the difference betwixt the 1:66 and the 1:48 twists. I had a .58 Hawken, the Bill Large barrel had a 1:48 twist, it shot the big Lee REAL slugs with good accuracy. I used that load when moose hunting in Alaska. (too many bloody griz where we lived down on the Kenai) I later gave some for a bud to try, his .58 had a 1:60, accuracy was horrible.

As an aside, back in the early 80's I used to get down to Vernal once a month to check on company leases and contract pumpers. We had scattered properties in SW Wyoming Overthrust, there in UT, and a few oil wells over in Rangely, CO. We lived in Rawlins, WY at the time, field office and main gas field was at Wamsutter, WY.

 

[Herb]

Thanks for the note.

 

[Lone Carabiner]

Lewis and Clark laughed when Indians told them of a huge bear(Grizz) that the firearms previously in the area could not bring down. The Corp of Discovery had the latest firearms, but quickly learned how tough the Grizz was. They were glad to be done with them, one absorbed 9 shots from their guns and kept coming to run them into the river onto the boats.
The expedition had large bore guns, muskets and rifles.

 

[Herb]

Well, I shot the conicals. Used my .40 Green River 36" barreled percussion Hawken I made. Shot 70 grains of Goex 3F, .40 Lee mold conical, weighed about 183 grains, miked about .403. They were lubed with some kind of reddish lube. Had to hammer the short starter to get them into the barrel, then drive them down with my steel range rod. Three shots was enough. Averaged 1644 fps, at least a 4" group. (One missed the paper).

For comparison I then shot six .400 cast balls from Track of the Wolf, with .012 pink and white pillow ticking and 60/40 Murphy Oil Soap and alcohol, CCI 11 caps, and 70 grains of Goex 3F. They averaged 2010 fps with 82 spread, first shot out of the group, then 5 in 1.5" at 50 yards.

Everything the same BUT .395 swaged Hornady balls, five went 2101 fps with 47 spread, 1.9" group, three in one hole.

Then I shot a Muzzleloader Builder Supply .40 flintlock "after the manner of Christian Beck", 36" Green Mountain barrel, I built. Same load as above, that is, .400 cast ball and 70 grains of Goex 3F, six shots went 1929 fps with 84 spread, 3.1" group.

Then I shot the .403 conicals in it, with 70 grains of Goex 3F, smearing SPG lube onto the bullets. Six went 1531 fps with 72 spread. They loaded pretty easy (the Green River barrel is tighter). First three shots in 2.5", next three off the paper.

I know little about shooting lubed cast bullets, but have found out that this bullet requires more work to shoot well. Perhaps it could be sized to .401, but that is beyond me now. I like the idea above of using a .380 with a patch, as mentioned above. Would like to try that.

 

[Herb]

Ohio Rusty- sounds like you have the answer I need. Tried your E-mail, it doesn't work. Herb

 

[roundball]

Ohio Rusty- sounds like you have the answer I need. Tried your E-mail, it doesn't work. Herb

Something may have happened to his computer or something...I've also tried to contact him a couple times via PMs...

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Well, I shot the conicals. Used my .40 Green River 36" barreled percussion Hawken I made. Shot 70 grains of Goex 3F, .40 Lee mold conical, weighed about 183 grains, miked about .403. They were lubed with some kind of reddish lube. Had to hammer the short starter to get them into the barrel, then drive them down with my steel range rod. Three shots was enough. Averaged 1644 fps, at least a 4" group. (One missed the paper).

For comparison I then shot six .400 cast balls from Track of the Wolf, with .012 pink and white pillow ticking and 60/40 Murphy Oil Soap and alcohol, CCI 11 caps, and 70 grains of Goex 3F. They averaged 2010 fps with 82 spread, first shot out of the group, then 5 in 1.5" at 50 yards.

Everything the same BUT .395 swaged Hornady balls, five went 2101 fps with 47 spread, 1.9" group, three in one hole.

Then I shot a Muzzleloader Builder Supply .40 flintlock "after the manner of Christian Beck", 36" Green Mountain barrel, I built. Same load as above, that is, .400 cast ball and 70 grains of Goex 3F, six shots went 1929 fps with 84 spread, 3.1" group.

Then I shot the .403 conicals in it, with 70 grains of Goex 3F, smearing SPG lube onto the bullets. Six went 1531 fps with 72 spread. They loaded pretty easy (the Green River barrel is tighter). First three shots in 2.5", next three off the paper.

I know little about shooting lubed cast bullets, but have found out that this bullet requires more work to shoot well. Perhaps it could be sized to .401, but that is beyond me now. I like the idea above of using a .380 with a patch, as mentioned above. Would like to try that.

A lot of commercially sold cast bullets are hard lubed for smokeless, not the best for BP. I normally use soft lubes for conicals and BP, nothing wrong with plain old Crisco, and have had good success with even Mink Oil. (the leather treatment)

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu have got to protect the base of those cast bullets. I am suggesting you try your load but use an overpowder wad, like a walter's fiber wad, to protect that base from being melted, burned, or cut by gases. I think much of the eratic accuracy you are experiencing will go away. Do use a good lube, and if you are buying hard cast bullets, you have to have them closer to groove diameter, than bore diameter.

If you are going to use those .380 diameter bullets in your .40 cal, try srapping them with cigarette paper. The rifling will slice through the paper as it goes down the barrel when fired, and the paper should separate from the bullet within a foot of the muzzle of the gun.

That 1:66 inch twist is awfully slow to expect it to stabilize a conical that is much longer than bullet diameter. That is a round ball twist rate.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

YOu have got to protect the base of those cast bullets. I am suggesting you try your load but use an overpowder wad, like a walter's fiber wad, to protect that base from being melted, burned, or cut by gases. I think much of the eratic accuracy you are experiencing will go away. Do use a good lube, and if you are buying hard cast bullets, you have to have them closer to groove diameter, than bore diameter.

If you are going to use those .380 diameter bullets in your .40 cal, try srapping them with cigarette paper. The rifling will slice through the paper as it goes down the barrel when fired, and the paper should separate from the bullet within a foot of the muzzle of the gun.

That 1:66 inch twist is awfully slow to expect it to stabilize a conical that is much longer than bullet diameter. That is a round ball twist rate.

Was your post directed to me?

 

[paulvallandigham]

NO; to Herb. I clicked on the wrong post by mistake. Please accept my apology, I am sure there is nothing I said above you did not know. I worry about a lot of people who are purely muzzle loading rifle shooters, and don't own or shoot cartridge guns. There is a lot of information that is common knowledge to cartridge reloaders, that is news to muzzle loaders, especially when they move from shooting PRB to shooting conicals. No sense people reinventing the wheel. Thanks. Paul

 

[Herb]

Paul- I don't know what worries you or why you presume I own no modern rifles. I used to have a custom gunsmithing business, mostly on centerfire rifles. Did custom handloading for about 25 calibers. Used to shoot Hunter Class Bench Rest matches. Have been published in Handloaders Digest, Handloader Magazine and Rifle Magazine on centerfire rifle building, loading, wildcats, and hunting. Still have about 30 modern firearms, including double barrel breech loading shotguns and an original ML shotgun. However, I never shot cast bullets.

The bullets I shot in the .40s (above) were pure lead, lubed by the guy who cast them. Some time ago tried another kind cast of a harder alloy, couldn't load them. I know the 1-66 is a roundball twist, but I shot conicals in it because it was what I had then. I have no reason to use them except in experimenting, which I like to do.

As for slow twist and bullet stability- you may remember the 12" twist .244 Remington, which wasn't supposed to stabilize 100 grain spitzer bullets. Well, I tried them, learned how to make them work very well, and even won a 200 yard Hunter Class bench rest match with them in North Dakota. Sold two magazine articles on the .244, before Mike Venturino did.

 

[Lone Carabiner]

At point blank range that Grizz must of had a hold of the ol' boy so anything you had to shoot is better than hollerin' at Grizz. Bet he keeps that .25 pistol on a sacred shrine now. :hmm: