400 yard hits with a patched round ball

[Birdwatcher]

What was Gaines position again? Oh, sentries were routinely wounded, even killed by single shots at 400 yards.

Sorry, had to go back for this one, shoulda included it in my last post.

I'm giving it as an example of an argument by someone who questions the nature of my arguments :grin:

I'm not recalling anything about "routine" in Gaines' report as given. However, one might throw in that term that wasn't there in order to present a false argument.

And your first response is to disbelieve Gaines.

Birdwatcher

 

[necchi]

insert "yawn" smiley here.

 

[Birdwatcher]

insert "yawn" smiley here.

Ya.

Actually I was waiting fer someone to tell me that the Cherokee Chief "Rich Joe" Vann weren't a real Indian. Well he weren't a TYPICAL Indian, but in terms of blood quotient he was about identical to Osceola; both had a Scots-Irish grandfather and two mixed-blood parents.

Not really off-topic; we're talking here about a Euro technology being used by Indians.

Birdwatcher

 

[Zonie]

Obviously, your mind is made up.

Anyone questioning the out of context quotes you believe, is in error.

Any comment made that questions your belief is wrong and the people making the comment are uneducated.

I would ask if I missed something but after all that has been said in this topic, I really don't care for an answer.

 

[jdkerstetter]

I believe that about sums it up Zonie. Well put. :hatsoff: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Moving on...

The sources cited by Carl P. Russel for his quotes are...

Treatise on the Rifle, Musket, Pistol & fowling piece, embracing projectiles & sharp shooting, Also The Manufacture Of Guns, And The Preparation Of The Materials Suited To Their Construction. A New Armament Proposed-More Efficent, Ornamental, And Less Weight. By N. Bosworth, civil & military engineer.1846

and Woodburne Potter's...

The War in Florida. 1836

Potter was there, Bosworth was citing after the fact. Both are apparently still available in print and I hope to have them in hand shortly.

Guys like me merely read the stuff that REAL Historians wrote, and extraordinary amount of correspondence and writing occurred within the year of 1836 pertaining to the events of that year in Florida. As best I can gather at short notice, Winfield Scott, who simply hated Edmund Gaines, had a Senate inquiry brought that same year.

Some idea of the labors wrought by REAL Historians can be had by perusing the records anf testimony of that lengthy hearing....

Public Documents Printed by Order of the Senate of the United States. 1836

Though dreadfully long, the pdf is searchable. Searching on "Izard" will quickly bring you to the testimony.

Unfortunately this does not include Gaines' original report pertaining to the battle.

One can readily determine however that the Seminoles and Black Seminoles were commonly armed with rifles.

Also, making some issues moot, turns out there were a considerable numbers of rifle-armed civilian volunteers in Gaines' force on the Withlacootchie.

Again, unfortunately not the original report, a letter from Gaines himself, sent on July 4th of 1836. Here's an excerpt. I'm liking this guy better and better....

American Historical Magazine. 1900. Skip to page 145 for Gaines' letter.

It may be said that I did not expose my officers and soldiers volunteers and regulars to as much risk and loss as some my accusers deem necessary to give éclat to a triumph. Heaven preserve me I pray from that éclat which is won by the useless or wanton sacrifice of those placed under my command.


Some indication thus far that Gaines' original report to Secretary of War Lewis Cass may be held at Duke University.

I'll report back when I have it.

Birdwatcher

 

[Supercracker]

Nevermind. Made a new thread.

 

[Snakebite]

I agree, this thread is exhausting.

 

[crockett]

Birdwatcher: on the Carl P. Russell stuff, sounds okay but you have to be sort of careful. For example on some of the folding knives Russell has a quote from a Carlye Smith (if I recall offhand) about the Kansas Monument knife- being fitted with a spring BUT Russell just added the spring part- the guy that dug up the knife never said such a thing so.....on some Russell data you almost have to look at the footnotes and then look at the original source.
Carl P. was a pioneer- the first guy to my knowledge to really start researching the material culture of the day- he did a lot but was off on a thing or two. Such as saying Mountain men used Green River butcher knives.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Thanks for the feedback, Mr. Russel certainly did excellent and exaustive work considering the resources and limited means of communication available in his day.

I know in decades past myself along with lots of other guys sure associated the term "Green River knife" with "Mountain Man", perhaps Mr Russel's work had much to do with that.

Still casting around here for a source for Gaines' original report, which I'm sure would be of interest to many.

Birdwatcher

 

[Carl Fowler III]

Having read all the previous reply's makes me wonder how many of you have ever shot long distance? I have never done it with a muzzleloader but have done it out west with a 44 mag handgun....and I can tell you for a fact it can be done, not everytime but often enough to make a sentry duck when he see's smoke! Remember these indians would be able to make the sqeezed off shot and then have time to see where their ball hit, heck they could even have had a spotter or two watching for hits...it's much easier than you think when you know where your last shot hit! I personally believe they could have done this well enough to make a visable target nervous about being exposed! :v

 

[Birdwatcher]

There was a report of a shot by American Riflemen at a group of British officers...

Many Klatch

Thanks Many Klatch, turns out that was Colonel George Hanger, in company with Banastre Tarleton.

'Twas your recollection that lead to me discovering this very recent article by one John Robertson, a Curator at the Cowpens Battlefield, addressing this very topic in depth, incuding the entire Hanger/Tarelton episode.

What is the Range of the Revolutionary War Longrifle?


Here's Hanger's account of that one shot...

There was a rivulet in the enemy's front, and a mill on it, to which we stood directly with our horses fronting, observing their motions. It was an absolute plain field between us and the mill, not so much as a single bush on it. Our orderly-bugle man stood behind us, about three yards, but with his horse's side to our horses' tails.

A rifleman passed over the mill-dam, evidently observing two officers, and laid himself down on his belly, for, in such positions they always lie, to take a good shot at a long distance. He took a deliberate and cool shot at my friend, at me, and the bugle-horn man.

Now observe how well this fellow shot. It was in the month of August, and not a breath of wind was stirring. Colonel Tarleton's horse and mine, I am certain, were not anything like two feet apart, for we were in close consultation, how we should attack with our troops, which laid 300 yards in the wood, and could not be perceived by the enemy.

A rifle-ball passed between him and me looking directly to the mill: I evidently observed the flash of the powder. I directly said to my friend, “I think we had better move or we shall have two or three of these gentlemen, amusing themselves at our expence.”

The words were hardly out of my mouth, when the bugle-horn man said, “Sir, my horse is shot.” The horse staggered, fell down and died. He was shot directly behind the fore-leg, near to the heart, at least where the great blood-vessels lie, which lead to the heart. He took the saddle and bridle off, went into the wood, and got another horse. We had a number of spare horses led by ***** lads.

Now, speaking of this rifleman's shooting, nothing could be better, but, from the climate, he had much in his favour. First at that time of the year, there was not one breath of wind, secondly, the atmosphere is so much clearer than ours, that he can take a more perfect aim.

I have passed several times over this ground, and ever observed it with the greatest attention, and I can positively assert that the distance he fired from, at us, was full four hundred yards.

My gosh you couldn't ask for a better account.

Mr. Roberton's conclusion based on this and other episodes...

If an expert rifleman were firing at you with intent to kill, 

They would have occasional lucky hits at 400 yards. 
They would hit you most of the time at 300 yards.
They would rarely miss at 200 yards. 
They would be picking which eye they wanted to hit at 100 yards.

Birdwatcher

 

[Grumpa]

Birdman, I have to say that I very much appreciate all of the historic research you are putting out here. And I am getting further insight into the "savage" Indian people, as well as some of the brave men who did battle with them. Re their use of rifles, I understand better now where you were coming from in the "battlefield pickup of Brown Bess muskets" thread earlier. A rifle culture, indeed. :hatsoff: I keep learning more every time I come on here. Thank you.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Why thank you Sir, such has been my intent all along.

And specific to the Creeks especially, and I'd guess a good many of their near-neighbors and blood kin the Seminoles; after more'n 100 years of close contact and intermarriage prior to 1836, it gets hard to pinpoint exactly where the "White" left off and the "Indian" began.

Closer to the topic, I ain't forgot about that first Gaines report of the battle. Might take me some time to find where it is if it still exists tho.

Birdwatcher

 

[Birdwatcher]

Forgot to add...

...added to which the Second Seminole War is unique in that there had to have been about a hundred Black men fighting on the Seminole side, ostensibly (and later legally by US law) slaves of the Seminoles but apparently having in most cases to do little more than render over some of their crops, which was probably gonna happen among the traditionalists anyway.

SOMEBODY needs to make a mini-series about the Black Seminole leader Juan Caballo AKA John Horse, and his long career beginning in Florida and spanning Oklahoma, Texas and Mexico.
http://www.learnliberty.org/videos...seminoles-and-largest-slave-revolt-us-history

Remarkable thing is, General Jessup, Gaines' successor in the war, was so taken with them that IIRC he actually paid for John Horse and his friend and close Seminole associate Wildcat to travel to Washington twice at his own expense to plead their case; once from Florida direct and once again from the Indian Territories.

Even more remarkable; in 1841-42, the US government actually allowed those 500 Blacks (which number includes their women and children), formerly in arms against the United States in a protracted and bloody war, to remove to the Indian Territory WHILE STILL BEARING ARMS.

From which we get a measure of a) just how desperate the US was to end that war and b) how very threatening the presence of the Black Seminoles was perceived to be by the adjacent Southern population.

Birdwatcher

 

[nkbj]

Has anyone posted some 400 yard targets yet?

 

[newtewsmoke]

Has anyone posted some 400 yard targets yet?

:hmm: Jethro!!!!!!!!

 

[BrownBear]

Has anyone posted some 400 yard targets yet?

Heck, I would just put a target out there and ask them to tell me whether it's 375 or 400 or 425 yards. They'd never need to shoot, because if they were wrong by only 25 yards, they'd miss when the made smoke. :rotf:

 

[nkbj]

Was trying to figure out the easiest way to do it. Maybe pick an aim point on a rock or tree and keep trying aim points until you find a 400 yard impact and then lay the target there on the ground. That would be fun.

 

[jethro224]

Has anyone posted some 400 yard targets yet?

:hmm: Jethro!!!!!!!!

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: Could be the makin's of a contest here... 6' x 2' target. 10 shots. Most hits wins?

If'n I had a 400 yard range available I'd sure give it a whirl.