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turkeytalker

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I picked up a 410 double sidelock (belgian) at Scheels (of all places) this weekend. I've always wanted one and finally found one in the last place I would ever look.

Now I need to find some loads and equipment to shoot it. I have found some information on 1/2oz load with 60grains FFg. Not sure I know where to begin.

Can anyone point me in the right direction? Books, sources of supplies, etc?

:bow:
 
Can I use 410 supplies that are used for "European loads"?

Grafs and BPI have compression wads, over shot cards, over powder wads.
 
You can get cushions and cards from either Circle Fly or Mike's Quality Black Powder Wads. I have used both, but I like Mike's best. Your experience may vary. It is hard to go wrong looking at the modern shotshells and using the Dr. Eq. as a starting point. You may chose to back down on the powder, just a little bit. Say 10%.
 
Here is some loading data from Hodgdon's Reloading manual, for ML shotguns. .410 Using FFg powder, try

34 grains( 1 1/4 dram) and 1/2 Oz shot for a light load.( 1078 fps.)

Go to 41 grains(1 1/2 dram)and 1/2 Oz. of shot for a medium load( 1123 fps.) and

41 grains( 1 1/2 drams) and 5/8 oz. of shot for a heavy load( 1024 fps.) That " medium load " is not going to pattern as well as the light or heavy loads, because the velocity is right at the speed of sound, and the sound barrier does all kinds of nasty things to round pellets in the air.

You should also read the articles under the Bob Spenser Website, Black Powder Notebook,
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html

You will find two good articles about loading shotguns: One at the top of the list by Bob himself, and the other written by the late, Great, V.M. Starr, found at the bottom of the second column in the index page. You gun is a 20 yard gun. 25 if you load it just right, and use heavy shot pellets, like #6, #5, or # 4. You won't see a lot of pellets in the charge, but they will retain energy to hit hard and kill what you point, inside that range. MORE is not better in BP shotgun loadings, so don't try to make this gun shoot WAY OUT THERE! It won't. Be nice to that old gun. It will serve you the rest of your life, if you treat it right. If you abuse it, with heavier loads like what you suggested, you will beat it to death in a couple of years of shooting. Do NOT exceed the speed of sound with anyload. In fact, keep the loads below 1100 fps at the muzzle to get the best patterns.
 
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Thanks guys,
I like the data. Where can I get the Hodgdon's manual? Is it the one on their website?

I think I will stick to the light 1/2oz loads. I will likely use 7-1/2 or 8 shot. I plan on using the gun for squirrels and rabbits until I get proficient and then maybe try it on birds.
 
7 1/2 or #8 shot are fine for target work, or doves, but a little light for squirrels and rabbits. Use #6 shot for game. Just my opinion, but its based on personal experience and observation over 40 years of hunting. If you don't know to the inch how far 25 yards is, measure the distance out, somewhere that you can look at it daily. Then get a mental picture of that scene by closing your eyes, and turning in a circle, stopping to estimate and then measure the distance to other objects, near and far. The better you get at knowing exactly how far you can hit a target and kill it humanely, the better a hunter you will be with the little gun.

My best friend had some guy bet him he could not fill a bag limit a day with doves using his DB SxS .410 Winchester. So, he used on that .410 all season long, and finished the season with more than 60 doves total killed, and No losses. Now, he did that by picking his shots, and by being a very good wing shooter. I was with him for part of that hunting season, and watched him pass on birds that were only 15 yards out. And, he knew the yardage to the inch! If a bird got within 12 yards, it was stone cold dead when it hit the ground. He knew his gun, and he knew how effective the shot was at those ranges. So if anyone tells you that you can't hunt and kill something with that shotgun, just smile, and look them up when you come out of the field with your bag for the day.

The .410 is really an expert's gun, and not the best choice for young kids. Kids have, and will continue to learn to shoot shotgun targets with .410s, just because the little guns weigh so little that kids can get started shooting at a young age.

There is nothing wrong with that. But the 28 gauge would be a better choice. In MLing shotguns, the 28 is no more expensive to feed than any other shotgun gauge, and you get better pattern, without increasing the weight of the gun.
 
Paul,

Do you find that sound barrier issue true to all gauges? I'm getting my first fowler a 20 ga. and will use it primarily on squirrels and rabbits. Of course if the occasional deer or turkey get in the way. :hmm:
 
First thing I would suggest is to measure those bores, just because it was sold as a .410 doesn't mean that .410 wads will fit.
A modern .410 with full choke is a good 25-30 yard gun but a cylinder bore muzzleloader will not give those same patterns and I suspect you will find the patterns get very thin and spotty at 20 yards. A more realistic expectation would be about 15 yards. Each individual pellet from the .410 will fly just as far and penetrate just as deep as would the same pellet from a 10 gauge, the limitation of the smaller gun is that you have only 1/3 as many pellets in the load. For that reason I would never load any shot larger the #6 in the .410 and would prefer 7 1/2 shot. You need both adequate penetration and adequate pattern density to put at least three pellets into the game. There is no sense in having 50 yard penetration if your pattern plays out at 15 yards. Number 7 1/2 shot delivers adequate penetration on pheasant out to 30 yards which is already beyond the limits of effective pattern from your .410. Any larger shot will only exacerbate the pattern limitation, with #4s for instance you only have about 65-70 pellets in the load, versus 175 pellets of 7 1/2 size.
 
Yes, Don, the sound barrel does not take a vacation for any ball diameter, or gauge.

Seriously, this is a matter of aerodynamics, and laws of physics, which are mostly beyond my education and training. I have the luxury of having a twin brother who is Mechanical Engineer, who I consult on all these scientific questions. Bob Brister wrote a wonderful book, Shotgunning, The Art and Science, published by Winchester Press in 1976. He convinced me that you " Can't fool Mother Nature".

If you can find some round balloons, you can better understand what is happening to shot in the air: Use just 3 of them, all the same size. Take one of them and throw it as hard as you can, doing this in your living room so we don't have to deal with any winds. Mark the floor or carpet to indicate where it lands. Now, from the same starting point, throw a balloon as soft, or slowly as you can. Mark its landing point. Now increase the velocity of your throw until the balloon goes the furthest. You will find that there is a " Less than maximum " throwing speed that allows the round balloon to travel the furthest distance. By comparison, the hardest throw competes with the softest throw for the shortest distance.

Now, do the same experiment using three balloons at once. Grab the three by their knots, and this time, the objective is to find a speed that keeps the three balloons the closest together while going the furthest. Air not only pushes on the Nose of a round ball, but on its sides, two, causing it to spread apart from the pellets around it. You will find that the speed you can throw the three balloons that keeps them together when they land on your floor or rug is slightly less than the most optimum speed for the single balloon.

These same observations can be made shooting shot, as the principles of aerodynamics are the same on all round objects traveling through air. It does not matter as to the size or weight of the object: air drags all of them pretty much the same. Using balloons in your living room is just an easier way to see all this, in the relatively short space available in your home.

Now, The SOUND BARRIER: Actually, my brother says there is a " Transonic Zone" from about 1100fps, to 1250 fps. where changes in the drag factors as a ball or pellet nears or passes through the sound barrier change. There are cones of air being pushed aside by the nose of the pellet, and a second one following behind the pellet, due to a vacuum that is created by the ball exceeding the speed of sound. Its the creation or elimination of that vacuum, as the ball or pellet approaches or comes back down through the transonic zone, that batters and buffets the pellet in the air, and sends it off line-of-travel. Put two or more balls, or pellets together, and you have gravity, and the affect of air traveling between the pellets and pushing them away from each other to accellerate the drag factors( friction of the air on the pellet causes more rapid slowing, but not evenly because a pellet may be directly behind one in front, or have several pellets around it limiting the air that hits it, causing the pellet to go faster than the ones in front and therefore bumping into those pellets in front of it, before losing speed, and veering off from the line of travel). Think of shot trying to separate the way you would think of a high speed auto accident involving several hundred cars.

We see this very occasionally in Stock car races, with cars going everywhere but straight ahead on the course. Some cars make it through the mess, and continue on.

That is about what happens to shot pellets in the air. In addition, the two cones merge as one as the pellet comes down below the sound barrier, and there is " fluttering " along the surfaces of the pellet as this process happens. Any imperfection or flat on a pellet will cause this action to send the pellet out of the pattern, slowing that pellet very quickly.

Because the .410 has such a small bore diameter, there are relatively MORE pellets rubbing against the bore than with a similar weight charge from a larger gauge barrel. That makes it doubly important for patterns to NOT kick the load so hard on firing that it rubs lead off all those pellets. ( Plastic shot cups have done more to round out the patterns of the .410 than any other gauge. The patterns are still pretty much the same size, regardless of choke, but they are more round). Using FFg or even Fg powder in a .410 so that you get much slower chamber pressure, and less of a " kick " to the shot charge is about the only way to improve pattern density. The other, of course, is to reduce the velocity, by usin the lighter loads. Since this is a 20-25 yard gun MAX., reducing the velocity is not going to reduce pellet energy AT THIS SHORT RANGE much at all. You can substitute single pellet energy by putting more pellets on the game, and do this by improving pattern density. Some kind of paper shot cup can also be used, to protect the shot, and I am a recent convert to lubing the barrel after seating the shot charge and OS cards, to allow the shot or shot cup to slide down the barrel, rather than have the pellets rubbing lead off in streaks down the barrel as they exit.

Oh, I don't think the 3 inch .410 shells do anything for the shooter past the first shot, and then its a maybe, only, in modern breechloaders. I believe the higher velocity these longer shells are loaded to cause more plastic deposits to be rubbed off against the barrel, and that plastic makes subsequent shot patterns more and more ragged by dragging on the next shotcup fired down the barrel.

I hope this helps explain. If you will read V.M. Starr's article on loads for the shotgun in Bob Spenser's Site, Black Powder Notebook, he comes to the same conclusion more than 50 years ago, and he also recommends light loads for the .410.
 
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