44 Conicals

[reddog]

rodwha,
Making your own is real easy but fitting them to your piece is important for accuracy and performance. If you can find a .45 caliber mold that will fit the frame configuration and not take up too much powder space, you can generally make it a winner. The best way that I have found is to run the back majority of the bullet into a sizer die that just lets the back end drop into the cylinder and leaves the front ring big enough to shear off on the mouth of the chamber.

These here are a RCBS mold that just works like a short maxi.

What RCBS mold is that Mr. Good Cheer???

 

[CaptainKirk]

I am looking at getting a Dragoon for use in the event I must track a wounded hog or black bear.
I figure a heavy conical makes more sense than a round ball due to the greater sectional density.
Dixie seems to be the only place I can find a 44 cal conical, but theirs weighs only 180 grns. I have seen weights of 200 and 220, but can't seem to find anyone who sells them.
Am I going to have to learn to mold my own?
I have read that conicals are difficult to load properly. Is this true?

I can't even believe I'm reading this.... :shake:
OK...forget the answers you've been given thus far.
I would like to go out on a limb here and advise you that carrying a Dragoon to dispatch either a wounded bear or hog is madness. :youcrazy:
This coming from someone who owns one and shoots it regularly....
Why would you even consider carrying a firearm with the potential of a misfire and/or hangfire, when a large caliber centerfire handgun will serve the purpose with much greater muzzle velocity, remaining energy, and terminal ballistics while giving nearly perfect reliability in all weather conditions? Because it's "cool"? Retro? Your hunting buddies will be impressed?
I guarantee neither the hogs or bears will be. Wounded dangerous animals are not a game to be played with. They are frightened, angry, and deadly, and don't offer second chances.
Ever have a misfire with a C&B at the range? I have.
If you want a Dragoon, by all means go for it. But leave it in the safe while hunting dangerous game and carry a modern centerfire weapon as a backup. Anything else is irresponsible and asking to be maimed or killed.

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Once back in the 1970's on the family ranch I shot a wild hog at 10 feet with an 1858 revolver, fully loaded. It just looked at me...rather crossly, actually. Then I finished the hog off with a .45-70 as it attempted to eat me.

 

[Dphar]

I am looking at getting a Dragoon for use in the event I must track a wounded hog or black bear.
I figure a heavy conical makes more sense than a round ball due to the greater sectional density.
Dixie seems to be the only place I can find a 44 cal conical, but theirs weighs only 180 grns. I have seen weights of 200 and 220, but can't seem to find anyone who sells them.
Am I going to have to learn to mold my own?
I have read that conicals are difficult to load properly. Is this true?

I can't even believe I'm reading this.... :shake:
OK...forget the answers you've been given thus far.
I would like to go out on a limb here and advise you that carrying a Dragoon to dispatch either a wounded bear or hog is madness. :youcrazy:
This coming from someone who owns one and shoots it regularly....
Why would you even consider carrying a firearm with the potential of a misfire and/or hangfire, when a large caliber centerfire handgun will serve the purpose with much greater muzzle velocity, remaining energy, and terminal ballistics while giving nearly perfect reliability in all weather conditions? Because it's "cool"? Retro? Your hunting buddies will be impressed?
I guarantee neither the hogs or bears will be. Wounded dangerous animals are not a game to be played with. They are frightened, angry, and deadly, and don't offer second chances.
Ever have a misfire with a C&B at the range? I have.
If you want a Dragoon, by all means go for it. But leave it in the safe while hunting dangerous game and carry a modern centerfire weapon as a backup. Anything else is irresponsible and asking to be maimed or killed.

This carried to its logical conclusion says to leave the ML in the safe altogether. There are all sorts of large toothy critters where I hunt. They have problem G bear where I hunt elk right now. I have not exposed myself and my ML to this yet this year, season opens today, but I seldom go out until about day 4 or 5 won't go up for an elk till later and someone will likely have shot it by then.

I have used a cap and ball revolver pretty extensively at times. Used one as my carry pistol for a couple of years. Misfires with good caps and a properly loaded revolver are virtually unheard of.
If people want carry a ML pistol its their choice and I do not see it as suicidal though something in the realm of the 1860 army would not be my first choice for repelling bears. Dragoon would be better. Or a 50-54 ML pistol.

Dan

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

rodwha & Zonie: the loading press of the hinge type is a weak affair...and the opening in the barrel lug might be too small for a decent conical of say 250 gr.You might also want to consider a conical of hollow based design.
If I were to go out hunting and want to use my Dragoon as a back-up pistol with heavy conicals I would load the cylinder at home with one of these separate loading presses. These handy presses will push almost all slightly oversized conicals straight (!) into the chamber of your C&B pistol. A heel type bullet should be considered for easier loading, however.
Good luck.
Bootsie

 

[bob308]

i would not use a dragoon colt. you have the better then even chance of a jam from a cap. plus a 58 remington with conicals like the lee 200 gr. would hit about as hard as the dragoon. there is a picture of a scoped 58 with a pig that was taken with it. in one of wy old navy arms catalogs.

also with the ramington if it does prove too light for a pig and you survive. you could then get a conversion cylender in .45 colt.

 

[Dphar]

Dan:
I was told that 45 cal lead bullets wouldn't work in a cap n ball (which I did not understand why)...
I was also told that the lead had to be virtually pure as well...
Was this info not accurate?
I noticed the 2 moulds on Dixie are either .450 or .456 caliber. I thought that the bullets needed to be a bit over caliber so that it would make a proper seal.

First if you make your own bullets you can make them of anything you want. Buy hard cast commercial bullets never occurred to me.

Also is there is excess lead being cut off the bullet the chamber mouths may not be properly beveled OR the bullets too big. There must be a SLIGHT bevel at the mouth to allow the ball/bullet to squeeze in but it need not and should not be excessive.
Most 44 C&B revolvers will use a .451-.454 diameter bullet.
But this can vary with the Italian guns since the quality varies widely even with the same makers mark stamp.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

i would not use a dragoon colt. you have the better then even chance of a jam from a cap. plus a 58 remington with conicals like the lee 200 gr. would hit about as hard as the dragoon. there is a picture of a scoped 58 with a pig that was taken with it. in one of wy old navy arms catalogs.

also with the ramington if it does prove too light for a pig and you survive. you could then get a conversion cylender in .45 colt.

I would no use either one. I would use a FL pistol.
I have a pair of these that will approximate 44 mag ballistics.
Good percussion pistol is the same and I have killed a deer with one years ago.
They make a C&B look pretty weak and are not as heavy as a Dragoon or Walker.
The Ruger OA is a good choice for conicals as well but are too ugly for me.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I am looking at getting a Dragoon for use in the event I must track a wounded hog or black bear.
I figure a heavy conical makes more sense than a round ball due to the greater sectional density.
Dixie seems to be the only place I can find a 44 cal conical, but theirs weighs only 180 grns. I have seen weights of 200 and 220, but can't seem to find anyone who sells them.
Am I going to have to learn to mold my own?
I have read that conicals are difficult to load properly. Is this true?

If tracking wounded critters you have time to load your primary firearm.

Dan

 

[nkbj]

rodwha,
Making your own is real easy but fitting them to your piece is important for accuracy and performance. If you can find a .45 caliber mold that will fit the frame configuration and not take up too much powder space, you can generally make it a winner. The best way that I have found is to run the back majority of the bullet into a sizer die that just lets the back end drop into the cylinder and leaves the front ring big enough to shear off on the mouth of the chamber.

These here are a RCBS mold that just works like a short maxi.

What RCBS mold is that Mr. Good Cheer???

Apologies for taking so long... last week was 93 hours. With complements to Douglas Adams, I felt like a glass of water that got drunk.

The mold for the pictured slugs is the RCBS 45-225-CAV. For that revolver the two back bands are sized to one thou under chamber diameter. Recovered slugs showed that the pure lead let the back bands expand to groove diameter.

 

[redhand9113]

I see some very interesting results in this thread. I used to use my 1911 for hogs with a great deal of success.

Using the Dragoon or Walker with Lee's REAL (Rifling Engraved At Loading)bullits should do the damage needed also. http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Black-Powder-REAL-Bullet-and-Combo-Molds/

The Rapine which is really close to the original bullets designed for the Walker/Dragoon using around 51 grains of Triple Seven should get you around 1,015 fps with a muzzle energy of 499ft/lbs. This is really at the top of the 45 Long Colt range ether way it is just short of a magnum! :wink:

 

[redhand9113]

Oh I almost forgot grind a chanel from the Hammer to the nipple gouge. Colt did this on some original Walker's to keep the caps from jamming the hammer and cylinder. You can find this modification listed in "Observations on Colts Second contract Nov. 2 1847" by Longfield and Basnett.

 

[rodwha]

Bob: Not too fond of the Rem look. I just can't despite how much stronger it may be. But a Dragoon should still pack more punch with the extra cylinder capacity of 50m grns behind a ball.

Dan: I have considered a single shot handgun with more power, but the overall size is roughly the same and would therefore prefer the extra rounds. I plan on moving from Texas to somewhere with mountains and 4 seasons and don't quite know what I'll be dealing with, but I assume the worst - thick brushy stuff, and figure a handgun may be easier to weild, otherwise I will rely on a more powerful rifle.

Redhand: I'm curious about this Rapine 218 grn bullet you refer to. Can a Dragoon handle a 51 grn charge of T7 behind it? I notice Uberti says they don't want you loading anything other than BP or Pyro, though I have read of many accounts of people feeding theirs nothing but safely. I also couldn't find anything about the modification you were refering to, though I must admit to my searches seeming like Bing commercials. :shake:

 

[reddog]

rodwha,
Making your own is real easy but fitting them to your piece is important for accuracy and performance. If you can find a .45 caliber mold that will fit the frame configuration and not take up too much powder space, you can generally make it a winner. The best way that I have found is to run the back majority of the bullet into a sizer die that just lets the back end drop into the cylinder and leaves the front ring big enough to shear off on the mouth of the chamber.

These here are a RCBS mold that just works like a short maxi.

What RCBS mold is that Mr. Good Cheer???

Apologies for taking so long... last week was 93 hours. With complements to Douglas Adams, I felt like a glass of water that got drunk.

The mold for the pictured slugs is the RCBS 45-225-CAV. For that revolver the two back bands are sized to one thou under chamber diameter. Recovered slugs showed that the pure lead let the back bands expand to groove diameter.

Thank you much!

 

[redhand9113]

Bob: Not too fond of the Rem look. I just can't despite how much stronger it may be. But a Dragoon should still pack more punch with the extra cylinder capacity of 50m grns behind a ball.

Dan: I have considered a single shot handgun with more power, but the overall size is roughly the same and would therefore prefer the extra rounds. I plan on moving from Texas to somewhere with mountains and 4 seasons and don't quite know what I'll be dealing with, but I assume the worst - thick brushy stuff, and figure a handgun may be easier to weild, otherwise I will rely on a more powerful rifle.

Redhand: I'm curious about this Rapine 218 grn bullet you refer to. Can a Dragoon handle a 51 grn charge of T7 behind it? I notice Uberti says they don't want you loading anything other than BP or Pyro, though I have read of many accounts of people feeding theirs nothing but safely. I also couldn't find anything about the modification you were refering to, though I must admit to my searches seeming like Bing commercials. :shake:

The best thing about Tripple Seven is that it does pack down better than BP. This is a charge a freind of mine uses with good results. However I wouldn't do that with a original.LOL According to Hackman Adams this pistol can be loaded with a 55 grain charge of BP http://www.hackman-adams.com/guns/ColtWalker.htm

The Sept/Oct issue of The Backwoodsman has a article on this where the author also uses Pyrodex T7 cartridges.He also compares the REAL and Rapine to the 140 grain ball. He also mentions the same Colt modifications. Pretty good info IMHO. :thumbsup:

 

[Poor Private]

What are the conicals micing out as? Since my 2nd model dragoon cylinders chambers all mic out at .457, I was wondering if it was designed to use conicals. This pistol was manufactured back in the 60's and has never been fired.

 

[aeatwood]

Hardened lead will not hurt the barrel per se, or damage the rifling. It WILL take a lot more force to seat, and you can damage the loading lever doing this. It will also drive up pressures drastically, and put a lot of additional strain on the barrel wedge/arbor.

T7 is recommended for 15% reduction in volume vs/ black powder for the same pressure. Combining it with hardened lead in a Dragoon would actually raise the specter of unsafe pressures. Even if the gun didn't blow up, you may get a gun life on par with the brass-framed guns.

You will also see a much higher POI than the already high round-ball POI. You will almost certainly have to put in a higher front sight to hit anything.

I would rather have ONE reliable heavy shot than 5-6 lesser ones for backup. Dixie has their 1855 .58 Carbine-pistols on sale for $450 right now, complete w/ shoulder stock. It would make a great backup gun in pistol configuration, and there isn't 1 hog in 10,000 that can eat a .570" ball and do anything but fall over.

And yes, if you can only have a BP weapon in the woods, a BP handgun is much better than nothing.

That isn't a consideration when hunting hogs in Tx or La., so my .500 S&W will go along for the trip. No restrictions at all on weapons or season. I've been tempted to take my 8 ga. trap gun and "flock-shoot" them. 8)

 

[rodwha]

I've considered a Traditions Vortek handgun since I could load a 300 grn 44 XTP backed by 70 grns.
But I like the idea of a historical "horse pistol" and the ability for repeat shots if necessary.
Most critters I've shot were planted DRT and so I'm hoping and planning not to have to do any tracking. :thumbsup:

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I've taken 2 feral hogs with BP revolvers, a '58 Rem and my ROA loaded with Lee mold conicals.
a nephew was in the blind w/me with his H&R 20ga mag loaded with #3 buck 'just in case'
the first was a smaller boar DRT from a base of skull shot the 2nd was a large sow that I bungled the shot too far back and high drilling both lungs though. it took off quicker than nephew could get his shotty on it!
we had about 1/4 mile track down as we saw the direction she ran and blood drops began to show up too. was still blowing foam when we found it in thicket and I gave it another slug in the head from about 15'.
the shots were all pass thrus. max load of 3F.
some years back I tagged along with bear hunters hereabout on 2 hunts I packed my ROA as I was told 'bring a large pistol if you have one'. a couple of old timers actually carried .45 muzller caplock rifles. the dogs struck trail but we didn't get the 2 bears they got after.

 

[nkbj]

To all:
You can damage Colt style black powder revolvers using conicals and fake black powder (substitute powders). I don't know about Remington style reproductions but I assure you that you can damage a Colt repro. Use black powder and don't try to force too much lead.