.45 Cal. Load Development - Accuracy - Terminal Results On Game

I will begin a new research, load development, accuracy potential and terminal results on game - this project starting the end of June and running till January of 2010 with a .45 Cal Side lock percussion custom muzzle loader with a 31" barrel and 1 & 18" twist, uniform bore with slight choke at end of barrel with the octagon barrel rounded at the end for the bullet guide.

I am trying to do a project that would elevate the cap lock percussion rifle as more efficient than the modern in-liner's of today. Also, showing that one rifle can be taken to the field that will accomplish many hunting tasks. This is a hunting rifle of it's day with the accuracy potential of some target rifles. My research is historical and accurate and allows us to keep the tradition of the 1800's alive and duplicates the experiments of those days.

Here are the bullets that will be involved in my testing as well as writing some articles concerning my findings and results from range to the field.

Paper patch bullets:
Starting from left to right:
210gr FN, 250gr FN, 280gr FN, 285gr HP, 325gr, 350gr HP, 355gr RN, 410gr FN, 500gr HP

Plain base bullets:
Starting from left to right:
Ball, 250gr FN, 260gr FN, 325gr FN

Here are some early results to give you some idea of the direction I will be taking. All of these bullet have already been proven in this rifle and are accurate, but require being shot again to verify accuracy and velocities for article.


100gr Charges of FFFg Triple Seven
285gr Paper patch 1875fps
350gr Paper patch 1830fps

In stead of a false muzzle to make sure the bullets are lined up perfectly, we will be using a unique bullet guide that I will describe later this year when I write the first article, but here is a picture of it.

 

[paulab]

greetings....sounds like a neat project but I wonder if you're not trying to re-invent the wheel. The pedersoli Gibbs target rifle and the English sporting [hunting]rifle I built from a kit both have 1:18 twist barrels designed for elongated .45 caliber bullets. Both shoot 500 grain grease groove and paper patch bullets very accurately [the Gibbs out to 600 yds.] The English sporting rifle sent a 500 grain bullet through an 8 point buck like a hot knife through butter. The blood trail was REAL easy to follow to put it mildly. 90 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 works well in both. cheers

 

[musketman]

Thanks for re-posting this.

On your plain base bullets, do you plan on trying different lubes with them as well?

 

[grey8833]

Side Lock:

I also have the Pectonica River Rigby kit (.451 with a 1-18 twist). Yes, back in the late 1800s Mr. Metford published a lot of data on long, hardened lead, loose fitting grease or paper patched 45 cal bullets fired from fast twist barrels using fine grade slow burning powder (as Paulab said, 1.5 Swiss at 90 to 100 grains seems to have been the standard).

All that said, I would love to see any results on your experments. In God we Trust, everyone else > bring data. Fire away!

Mike F

 

[BrownBear]

In my mind your planned work kind of picks up where muzzleloader research stopped when it was killed off by cartridges. Ease of loading did the killing rather than accuracy or power, because those early cartridge rounds and the rifles that fired them were neither powerful nor compararably accurate.

I don't know if it will offer insights, but I'm going to recommend a fascinating read if you haven't already run across it. "The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target" by F.W.Mann, originally published in 1909, was kind of the ultimate research piece of the day. You don't have to track down (or pay for) an original, but you still might have to do some digging. In 1980 Wolfe Publishing brought it out again, theirs a faithfully reproduced copy of Harry Pope's own volume, including lots of hand-written margin notes. Wolfe's ISBN is 0-935632-04-2 Hard Bound. I'm betting you can get it from one of the used sellers.

You'll be real happy reading this one, if you haven't already!

 

It is so nice to see shooters who know their stuff and done some research as you gentleman have. Thank you for the book references and I will surely find them. I also recommend the book "The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle" by Ned h. Roberts. This book was published for The National Rifle Association By Odyesseus Editions, Inc. I do not know where one would find this book at the moment but a little research ought to turn one up.

It will be a couple of weeks before I post comments and some results saving most of the results for my articles that I am going to write. I have a friend I will be conferring with in detail and he will not leak out all my info before I write.

After each article I will post the article, pictures and data on this forum for all to have access to.

 

I am not be so pretentious as to assume I was trying to reinvent the wheel, as much as getting more traditional Muzzle-Loaders of cap lock rifles to appreciate the finer realities of the .45 cal cap lock. It is a very versatile and extremely useful tool in the field for so many tasks.

Also, testing work done by a close friend who is very good at producing a fine rifle that is very strong, accurate and does not cost an arm and a leg.

I look forward to the tasks of load development and range work along with hunting with the rifle this fall.

 

Thanks for re-posting this.

On your plain base bullets, do you plan on trying different lubes with them as well?

I will be only using LBT and 100% bear grease.

 

[roundball]

I've posted many times here about the outstanding accuracy I got out of T/C .45cal Hawken 1:48" barrels, using T/C's 255grn Maxi-Hunters...to the point of saying if I could only have one Flintlock "rifle", it would be a .45cal x 1:48" for the best of both roundball and small conical worlds...128grn & 255grn projectiles cover the gamet of plinking, small game, and a lot of big game.
And as I said in my first reply to your original post, thanks for being willing to share your test results...

 

[rabjr]

Interesting, there are only 3 possible bullets there in your lineup that I would consider using for game because of their wide meplat. I look forward to your " terminal results on game". :thumbsup:

 

Interesting, there are only 3 possible bullets there in your lineup that I would consider using for game because of their wide meplat. I look forward to your " terminal results on game". :thumbsup:

I have coming in a month or so a very special designed bullet coming that LBT is making a mold for that will be a paper patch bullet weighing (depending on alloy) form 315 to 320grs and it will have a generous meplat.

Also, some of the bullets that do not have a large or generous meplat are designed to be use with only lead and are not hard so as to upset quickly. I am using many different kinds so as to present many options for different applications.

 

[paulab]

side lock....I'm curious about your paper patch bullets. Why would you patch grease groove bullets? Did you run those through a sizing die after patching? What kind of paper did you use and how thick? The paper looks transparent. The .45 caliber p.p. bullets I am familiar with are all smoothe sided and drop out of the mould .008-.010 under bore size.[about .441 dia.] The 2 wraps of paper then bring the diameter up to bore size or a thousandth under depending on the thickness of the paper. Upon firing, the paper patch should come off the bullet at the muzzle. In my experience, when a patch stuck to a bullet too long, it was a guaranteed flyer. You might want to look into the ready made p.p. bullets that Buffalo arms sells. You could get enough for your testing without having to buy the moulds which are quite expensive. cheers

 

[brubincam]

-----I have paper patched grooved bullets for my 44 mag rifle and they worked fine--no leading

 

[Rancocas]

Sidelock;
I do apoligize for my response to your original post on this subject.
I am strictly a round ball man. When you mentioned sabots in your original post, I saw red and nothing else. To me that is a foul four letter word.
I still have no interest in conicals, or short barreled, fast twist rifles, except in my modern firearms, however I wish you well with your experiments.

 

side lock....I'm curious about your paper patch bullets. Why would you patch grease groove bullets? Did you run those through a sizing die after patching? What kind of paper did you use and how thick? The paper looks transparent. The .45 caliber p.p. bullets I am familiar with are all smoothe sided and drop out of the mould .008-.010 under bore size.[about .441 dia.] The 2 wraps of paper then bring the diameter up to bore size or a thousandth under depending on the thickness of the paper. Upon firing, the paper patch should come off the bullet at the muzzle. In my experience, when a patch stuck to a bullet too long, it was a guaranteed flyer. You might want to look into the ready made p.p. bullets that Buffalo arms sells. You could get enough for your testing without having to buy the moulds which are quite expensive. cheers

Your questions are good ones but will take some time for me to answer and I will I am in a rush this morning. To quickly reply, these work well and I have not fliers. I will answer you questions later today.

 

Sidelock;
I do apoligize for my response to your original post on this subject.
I am strictly a round ball man. When you mentioned sabots in your original post, I saw red and nothing else. To me that is a foul four letter word.
I still have no interest in conicals, or short barreled, fast twist rifles, except in my modern firearms, however I wish you well with your experiments.

Rancocas, I completely understand and I have no problem with your passion and convictions, at least you have some conviction. Thank you for your well wishes and I hope you always have good smoke.

 

[Dphar]

I will begin a new research, load development, accuracy potential and terminal results on game - this project starting the end of June and running till January of 2010 with a .45 Cal Side lock percussion custom muzzle loader with a 31" barrel and 1 & 18" twist, uniform bore with slight choke at end of barrel with the octagon barrel rounded at the end for the bullet guide.

I am trying to do a project that would elevate the cap lock percussion rifle as more efficient than the modern in-liner's of today. Also, showing that one rifle can be taken to the field that will accomplish many hunting tasks. This is a hunting rifle of it's day with the accuracy potential of some target rifles. My research is historical and accurate and allows us to keep the tradition of the 1800's alive and duplicates the experiments of those days.

Hope you got a platinum lined nipple.


If you want something that "performs" like an inline buy an inline. I hunt with a ML because I like hunting with a ML. If I want something that performs like a modern inline I skip the ML completely and use the 6.5 Swede or maybe a HV 45-70.
Using bullets or shotgun primers or corrosive substitute powders defeats the purpose of hunting with a ML from my standpoint. If its only about killing stuff then I use the Swede to fill the freezer.
I have shot a lot of game with a lot of different calibers/bullets/powders/velocities and sighting equipment. Almost anything will work with proper shot placement. Rather than screw around with fast twist bullet rifle for hunting you could have built a rifle using a 300-400 grain ROUND ball and then have a rifle that is actually MORE effective over normal ML ranges with out the pressure levels needed to move a 45 caliber bullet at a reasonable velocity.
Did it never occur to you that there might be a reason why long slugs were not used for hunting "back in the day"??
The conical "naked" bullet never caught one because
1. Its really no more effective than anything else, weight for weight it is LESS effective than the PRB to 100-130 yards. The conical was developed to increase the extreme range. The extreme range has little to do with hunting.

2. Unpatched bullets tend to move off the powder before firing. Cab you spell "bore obstruction"?
3. Even loaded very heavy the trajectory is high with 45 bullets over about 270 grains.
It takes about 30000 psi to get a 500 grain to 1500-1600 fps in a CARTRIDGE gun with BP. So do some research. It takes almost as much for a 400 grain. Velocities under 1600 produce a high trajectory over normal hunting ranges. 2000 fps will allow a 300-350 grain 45 bullet to shoot flat enough for 180-200 yard shots. But you can't get 2000 with a ML with BP. So you use 777. Good luck with barrel life.

4. A 45 with 70 grains of BP and a 520 grain bullet will erode a steel nipple to the point of inaccuracy in 10-20 shots. *Hard* stainless will last a little longer 50 or mor perhaps. Platinum lined will last very well but the nipples are about $80 a pop. The slug guns of the 19th century used a sealed ignition. Many of todays slug gun shooters do the same with either a percussion cap or modern primer. Pressure problems and nipple erosion are why the inlines don't use percussion caps.

If you go to google books and down load "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles" by James Forsythe. It should be very educational once past the 19th century internal ballistics. Nobody got it right back then it seems. But he understands hunting rifles very well.
The craze to shoot conical bullets comes from companies developing "new and improved" to sell to people buying their factory made ML arms. Since the companys were making bullets the RB had to be "bad" the funny part is that people actually believe this crap. The gun magazines jumped on the band wagon since the makers BUY advertising. SO.... the magazines just LOVE anything they make no matter how idiotic it might be.
The PRB is and always has been a good hunting projectile to about 130 yards. It shoots flat it penetrates adequately. A friend shot through a Wyoming deer side to side with PRB from a 45 caliber flinter at 120 yards last fall. Broke ribs going in and out. The deer went down where it stood, breaking the ribs apparently shocked the spine. Now ask your self if a conical at higher pressure would have done better?

Range too short? See "6.5 Swede" above. It outshoots the inline in all respects and I don't have to wash perchlorate salts out of the bore when I get home. But I don't consider hunting with this to be in the same class as hunting with an actual traditional ML.

At the velocity and bullet diameters we are discussing here energy is not a valid measure of killing power. Energy is based on velocity and will greatly favor the HV light bullet. Energy does not translate into killing power. Killing power requires ADEQUATE bullet diameter and enough velocity to give ADEQUATE penetration.


This is a "high performace" ML type endeavor and certainly has nothing to do with traditional MLing.
The only thing you are gaining in using a conical is range. This is of dubious value with traditional sights. A laser range finder and a range table will prove invaluable.

Your research is NOT historically accurate at all in the context of hunting arms.
Bullets, aside from the cloth patched picket, were used for target work, and maybe sniping back in the day, not hunting. Even the picket bullet requires more equipment that I care to carry when hunting and is very finicky and requires a lot of powder (pressure) to shoot well in many cases.

And finally how do you do HC research using 777 as a propellant? This whole thing sounds like another ad for the bullet makers and Hodgdon.

:dead:

Dan

 

[doulos]

I have no side in this and am actually interested in Side Locks findings. However Dan makes some good points. The most important being the ranges we can effectively shoot at with open sights being the most important. For me I cant shoot or wont shoot past 100 yards with open sights, so projectile doesn't matter as much.
For most guys my age ( myself included) if you're gonna shoot farther than that at game you need a scope to be fair and ethical to the game hunted.

 

Dan, you are so wrong on so many points and it would take a book to correct your notions much less your assumptions historically and otherwise. I just choose at the moment to let you believe all the stuff you wrote. Don't take offense, I just don't have the time to engage your comments. Will say though I have gone 200 rounds with my present nipple and no accuracy loss. When I finish this research which is traditional as I am duplicating experiments of those in the mid to late 1800's, I will comment then on some of your comments.

 

[Dphar]

I have no side in this and am actually interested in Side Locks findings. However Dan makes some good points. The most important being the ranges we can effectively shoot at with open sights being the most important. For me I cant shoot or wont shoot past 100 yards with open sights, so projectile doesn't matter as much.
For most guys my age ( myself included) if you're gonna shoot farther than that at game you need a scope to be fair and ethical to the game hunted.

I have lost 2 posts here some how and am now some what jaded with the thing.
Below is a the heart & lungs from a Mule Deer doe shot at 40 yards with a .662 rb.
The ball entered beside the windpipe and penetrated about 30".

This is the entrance wound on a Mule Deer buck shot at 90 yards (measured) with the same rifle. deer dropped in his tracks though no major bones were struck.

Rifles of .62 (350 gr ball+-) and 69 (460 gr ball +- are readily available if you look on the internet for English or Forsythe rifles. Oregon barrel works is a source.
These rifles have the power to kill at ranges past open sight accuracy for most shooters.
I have cleanly killed deer with 50-54 calibers to 140 yards or so but this is about max once past this distance the drop becomes to rapid and even at 140 the rifle needs to be zeroed at 120 yards. Not 100. This requires 1800-1900 fps MV with a 50-54. Heavier calibers will do well at 1600-1700 depending on ball size.
As I previously posted traditional ML hunters should download and read Forsythe.
The conical vs the RB for use in MLin hunting guns was settled long ago and not in the conicals favor.
cartridge guns are NOT THE SAME and can use conicals to better advantage with no "downsides".

Researching the "replica" BP loaded/bulleted/saboted etc etc ML does not "help" the traditional ML hunter. If anything it HURTS the traditional ML shooter/sport.
Dan