45 cal PRB for mule deer.

[chix2111]

Range yes, killing ability nah. Deer that are double lunged with a modern broadhead bleed out in seconds....not so with a prb (in my experience)

 

[tenngun]

Never had one walk too far from a prb hit myself. Never took one with a bow, so I’ve nought to say to that but ball drops them pretty fast

 

[GANGGREEN]

Again, I'm just trying to be honest and fair. My opinion is that tons of deer have been effectively harvested with a .45 and it's fine for a conscientious hunter who knows his rifle and how to use it. I've also admitted that personally, I prefer a .50 and prefer a .54 to that even for whitetails, let alone mule deer. All that said, regarding archery gear, my experience has been that most deer that I've hit through the boilermaker with a modern broadhead lived literally a matter of seconds, no more. Sure, they dashed off, but typically you hear or see them die and it's literally within seconds because of the massive blood loss from the lungs (again, assuming the deer is well-hit). I've had multiple deer that I've shot with muzzleloaders that were hit well and which travelled a long distance and lived a good while, even needing the occasional finishing shot (I killed one this October with a .54 that I followed a long way and had to finish with a coup de grace).

Obviously both archery gear and muzzleloaders sometimes drop them in their tracks and sometimes leave them travelling, I just take issue with your assumption that modern archery gear isn't as effective as a muzzleloader. I don't really hunt much with a bow anymore and much prefer shooting deer with flintlock rifles, just trying to be honest and fair for the sake of the argument.

Never had one walk too far from a prb hit myself. Never took one with a bow, so I’ve nought to say to that but ball drops them pretty fast

 

[Treestalker]

Whenever these caliber vs. caliber discussions come up as threads, the underlying truth that must be addressed from an individual hunter's perspective is, "How do I define hunting?"

Each of us has a somewhat different definition of the word "hunting", depending upon the EXACT CIRCUMSTANCES that occured as our ethics were defined by our teachers, our life's hunting circumstances, and the way WE CHOSE to ethically react to each set of circumstances as they occured when WE FOUND OURSELVES ALONE, AND REQUIRED TO REACT to a particular situation.

As any firearms enthusiast knows, the smallest calibers are capable of killing deer-sized game, IF USED WITHIN THE BALLISTIC PARAMETERS OF THE CARTRIDGE/ M-L CALIBER.

Yet, in every single thread of this type that I can recall reading, blanket statements are constantly being thrown about calibers suitable for mule deer vs. whitetail deer, .40 caliber vs. .45 caliber vs. .50 caliber vs. .54 caliber.

When I return to the hunting fields, if a shoulder-fired weapon is to be in the mix, it will HAVE TO BE a .40 caliber rifle with a wide buttplate. My steadily increasing osteoarthritis, and my PCP have dictated that any return to rifle shooting be in a very low recoiling caliber. As well as switching constantly back, and forth, from shoulder-to-shoulder to distribute the recoil as evenly as possible between both sides of my body. As well as a shooting vest with recoil absorbing pads for both shoulders.

This means that an accurate pair of range finding binoculars will HAVE TO BE PURCHASED, and utilized to determine the range, before pulling the trigger.

A custom rifled Spanish Escopeta (patilla flintlock) with one of Colerain's, gain twist rifled, 1:36" twist at the muzzle, A-weight, 38" long, American pattern, octagon-round barrels in .40 caliber that will allow me to utilize either patched balls, or grease-groove bullets on top of an over-bore-sized wool wad.

I will be looking for a rifle with an all up weight of no more than 7 pounds. The closer to 6 pounds my gunmaker can get the weight, the better. With a .40 caliber, 200-250 grain, grease-groove bullet (Accurate Molds), modeled loosely on a Lee R.E.A.L. bullet (tapered bullet, with tapered bands), such a rifle will be capable of hunting everything from squirrels to black bear.

Do to the necessities of life I sold off all my weapons back in the early 90 's. The one I most regret selling was a custom, .62 caliber, fullstock, flintlock "Hawken" rifle.

I put Hawken in quotes because I now know that the rifle I had built, and delivered, in 1989 WAS NOT a Hawken rifle, no matter what I thought at the time.

It had a 38" long, swamped, 1:48" twist, Getz barrel that was factory coned. I could thumb start a patched ball more than halfway into the bore. I used a home-made short starter (1/2" diameter) only to take the stress off of the 7/16" diameter ramrod. The short starter really was not necessary, as if one choked up close to the muzzle with the ramrod, the coned muzzle allowed the patched ball to be pushed down into the bore until any chance of breaking the ramrod was eliminated.

I had the builder install a hooked, Nock-style, chambered breechplug to fit the long, Hawken-style tang. This was before you could buy them as cast parts from T.O.W. Cost me roughly $200.00 in machine shop time, but was worth it. Along with one of the, then fairly new, Chambers White Lightnin' touch hole liners & one of my favorite locks, the large Siler flint; ignition was as fast as any rifle I've ever owned.

Curly maple, stained very dark. All steel parts, except for the ramrod tip. Steel parts browned. No patchbox. Plains-style buttstock with beavertail cheekpiece. Three captured barrel keys with oval escutcheon plates. Long doubleset triggers, double bolted to the beavertail tang. Scroll triggerguard.

In retrospect, kind of a mish-mash of design ideas, and parts. I do not believe the builder signed it, although I asked him to.

When I first started shooting it I started with 50 grains of fffg Goex, and by the end of the first range session had settled on 75 grains of fffg Goex. Because that's what I had on hand to shoot with the first time out, and sometimes serendipity shows right up in the beginning.

By the end of three hours in that first shooting session, I was able (with my lousy eyesight), to keep 5 shots consistently in a 50-cent sized group from the bench. And, about 1.5" diameter groups, on average, offhand. This was at 50 yards.

Which was then, and still is, my self-imposed limit for open sight hunting. Unless a weapon has a telescopic sight on it, I simply cannot see well enough to ethically take a shot at any game animal past that distance. Period. I made that pledge to myself when I was in my 20's, and for all the years that I hunted, I never failed to keep my pledge. There were some huge disappointments, when game was past my range, but thems the breaks.

Simply put, that was as well as I could shoot at that time in my life. Sometimes Mr. Murphy is looking in the opposite direction.

I LOVED that rifle. With 75 grains of fffg black powder, and a 0.610" diameter lead ball weighing about 340 grains, recoil was very moderate. I have no recollection of the patch material I was using then.

Vis-a-vis recoil, I should also mention that I had asked for a wide, flat, early-style buttplate, instead of the typical hooked, deeply-curved Hawken buttplate.

As I recall, the weight was right around 9 pounds. Even with the sling swivels that that rifle had, that is more weight than I want to carry around now that I am 66, and have progressive osteoarthritis.

So a .45 caliber is the absolute maximum that I can consider shooting any longer. More likely a .40 caliber.

Even though the "Little Devil" on my left shoulder keeps whispering sweet nothings into my ears trying to convince me to go with a .58 caliber, or larger.

So far, my "Good Angel" on my right shoulder has kept me from that mistake/stupidity.

That was a beautiful post that accurately describes many of us in compromised ability. I too suffer from the progressive osteo you have, and can sympathize with having to give up certain long guns. Your 'Hawken' sounds like a great gun, well thought out and used in a decent fashion. I agree with your loading 75 gr. in the .62 bore, most folks burn way too much powder for the job. Accuracy with a PRB will do the job. I have been working on a long barreled .50 cal. pistol, half stock percussion, 15/16" ATF barrel and a modified Siler large Classic percussion lock and single trigger. It feels good in the hand to carry, but just about requires two hands or a rest. That's OK, since my left arm is 1/2 paralyzed. This will be my last big game gun build. Good luck in your quest for the gun of your dreams and I hope many more hunts for you.

 

[Bad Karma]

I grew up in Northern Alaska and hunted Toklat Griz in the Brooks Range or along the Yukon many dozens of times from 11yo until I left home and went into the Marine Corps. We’d do two to three-week hunts regularly for these silver-back griz who are always starving and living on mice, moles, and berries and will track you across the tundra long before you know they are there. Dad used a 30-06 on these bear with either iron sights or a 3x9 up close for 20 years. On one of our hunts we crested a rise and a griz was less than a hundred yards away already on his hinds and sniffing our direction. By the time we realized what time it was, he was already at a full gallop, and by the time dads buddy Gordon started screaming for dad to shoot him the bear was at a full run. Dad hit this bear twice in about 5 seconds and the third shot took him right in the forehead at about 30 yards. I was 15 and the shotgunner and stood there peeing in my pants as Gordon screamed and Pop laid the bear down right in front of us. We were 5 days from the plane coming in that day and we spent the last days looking at each other funny while fishing for Grayling and eating grilled backstrap. Dad never took the little 30 cal hunting again. He was a 460 Weatherby man from then on out. Use what does the job, depending on the job at hand, and based on experience....

That’s one of the things it’s much better to have done than to be doing... do you miss Alaska?

 

[Bob McBride]

That’s one of the things it’s much better to have done than to be doing... do you miss Alaska?

It sure is.

Yea, I loved it. Always thought I’d move back but just never did. Visited a lot.

 

[Bob McBride]

Bravo Bob. Love to catch Grayling in those little tundra streams, hunting Caribou. I remember my son gathering wild blueberries to put in the pancake batter for the best breakfast a man could ever wish for.

Exactly right! I also have a story about a bear in a blueberry patch, but we would brave that for pancakes with so many blueberries in them they would hardly stay together.

 

[Bob McBride]

I lived in Alaska for 2 years. Never encountered a grizzly bear, Thank You God!!!

Saw their prints several times, and once returned to the car when I realized that the prints were less than 5 minutes old (fresh steaming scat further along), and we were unarmed. Failure to listen to advice. To be armed when going afield. Alaska is WILD, which includes Anchorage when the animals are hungry.

When large apex predators are NOT an everyday part of ones experience, it can be difficult to assimilate the sage advice that native Alaskans, and Westerners give out to inexperienced newcomers.

Especially, if you tend to be a hardheaded, know-it-all like I (and my friends) were when I was younger.

Bob, that's not the first story about how fast a grizzly bear can move that I have heard. I worked with a native born kid in Anchorage who when he was 18 was exploring Alaska before college. He grounded his skiff, walked about 50m to the top of a slight ridge, spied a grizzly bear over a 1000m away across two small valleys.

The wind was blowing his scent in the bear's direction. IMMEDIATELY upon smelling him, the bear stopped feeding on berries, swapped directions, and started charging at a full gallup towards him. Although armed with a marine-grade, 12 gauge, pump shotgun loaded with Brenneke rifled slugs; he ran down the slope towards his skiff as fast as possible.

By the time he reached the skiff, he could hear the bear behind him. He pushed the boat into the water, started the outboard motor, and with no time to turn the skiff around, just backed up as fast as the motor would go.

The grizzly pursued him 50m out into the water, snapping its jaws furiously, before giving up. He was afraid to try shooting for fear the bear would capsize the skiff before he could get both hands on the shotgun to control it.

If I was only going to be able to afford one m-l rifle, and I would be living in wolf/cougar/grizzly/moose/elk country then I think my minimum would have to be a .58 caliber.

Yep, sounds about right. I grew up near North Pole, AK and the bear up there and points North were man eaters. We lived a sort of half ‘off the grid’ life. Dad ran a 90 mile winter trap line, and there was always a Martin, Wolf, or Wolverine hanging in the woodshed, (or in the kitchen if it was 40 below or colder) and we rarely missed a day of any big game season or fish open. We were in the woods every day. My primary daily chore was cutting wood, as we used about 15 cord of wood a year. By 12yo I never went anywhere out of sight of the house without a pistol on my hip and a shotgun within arms reach as thats better than a stick to keep him off and knife when the bear is trying to get your skull in his mouth. I also lived for several years on Kodiak Island and the brownies there were mostly fat and happy because of the Salmon runs and Sitka Deer but they did still make a meal out of a greenhorn here and there. My hat tips to those early guys who did hunt them with muzzleloaders but I for one would pass.

Back on Deer with a .45, nothing works well if you’re one of those that gets buck fever or is just trying to hit it somewhere, but if you’re one of those who haven’t missed the lungs at least for your last 5-10 kills it’s just fine. I do modern archery too and, like a well placed .45 at reasonable range, a 3” mechanical broadhead through the breadbasket is as sure as the guillotine.

Also, to Chix211's point, if you can't hit them right, practice, or you'll be seeing one drop of blood every 15 yards until noon....

 

[LME]

I grew up in Northern Alaska and hunted Toklat Griz in the Brooks Range or along the Yukon many dozens of times from 11yo until I left home and went into the Marine Corps. We’d do two to three-week hunts regularly for these silver-back griz who are always starving and living on mice, moles, and berries and will track you across the tundra long before you know they are there. Dad used a 30-06 on these bear with either iron sights or a 3x9 up close for 20 years. On one of our hunts we crested a rise and a griz was less than a hundred yards away already on his hinds and sniffing our direction. By the time we realized what time it was, he was already at a full gallop, and by the time dads buddy Gordon started screaming for dad to shoot him the bear was at a full run. Dad hit this bear twice in about 5 seconds and the third shot took him right in the forehead at about 30 yards. I was 15 and the shotgunner and stood there peeing in my pants as Gordon screamed and Pop laid the bear down right in front of us. We were 5 days from the plane coming in that day and we spent the last days looking at each other funny while fishing for Grayling and eating grilled backstrap. Dad never took the little 30 cal hunting again. He was a 460 Weatherby man from then on out. Use what does the job, depending on the job at hand, and based on experience....

A charging Grizzly doesn't really scare me but I can mess up a pair of Fruit of the looms pretty quick!

 

[Bob McBride]

A charging Grizzly doesn't really scare me but I can mess up a pair of Fruit of the looms pretty quick!

I think it might've got all the way down to my boots that day....

 

[tenngun]

Again, I'm just trying to be honest and fair. My opinion is that tons of deer have been effectively harvested with a .45 and it's fine for a conscientious hunter who knows his rifle and how to use it. I've also admitted that personally, I prefer a .50 and prefer a .54 to that even for whitetails, let alone mule deer. All that said, regarding archery gear, my experience has been that most deer that I've hit through the boilermaker with a modern broadhead lived literally a matter of seconds, no more. Sure, they dashed off, but typically you hear or see them die and it's literally within seconds because of the massive blood loss from the lungs (again, assuming the deer is well-hit). I've had multiple deer that I've shot with muzzleloaders that were hit well and which travelled a long distance and lived a good while, even needing the occasional finishing shot (I killed one this October with a .54 that I followed a long way and had to finish with a coup de grace).

Obviously both archery gear and muzzleloaders sometimes drop them in their tracks and sometimes leave them travelling, I just take issue with your assumption that modern archery gear isn't as effective as a muzzleloader. I don't really hunt much with a bow anymore and much prefer shooting deer with flintlock rifles, just trying to be honest and fair for the sake of the argument.

I didn’t want to imply archery was not an effective game killer, or ‘not as good’ as a ball or other projectile from a more technologically advanced weapon.
We spent lots of years killing lots of game with all sorts of archery equipment.
When I posted I was instead thinking of the aspects of knowing your range and abilities.
I set my smoothbores for fifty yards, that’s their effective range for me. Not fifty five, not sixty if it’s a good shot. My range is fifty, and I doubt very much if I’ve ever went over forty.
I would say that successful archery hunters do the same thing. They have a max range and don’t violate it.
I’ve let shots go I could easily take with a ml rifle, but it was just a tad to far. I’ve had deer hide in persimmon groves, thirty yards away I couldn’t get a good clear shot at.
I ‘spect most successful archery hunters have done the same.
As a Hunter has put muleie roast in the pot with archery you sure could with a .45.... if you treat the gun with a set of rules and don’t violate them, period.
There is no ‘better’ means of hunting, there are bad kills or worse, wounded and lost game because bad shots or out of range shots were taken.
A .45 SMR is not a 45-70 Sharps a .50 isn’t a BAR.
Should you want to do a .45 fire mule deer you have to be careful of your range and shots.

 

[Bob McBride]

I didn’t want to imply archery was not an effective game killer, or ‘not as good’ as a ball or other projectile from a more technologically advanced weapon.
We spent lots of years killing lots of game with all sorts of archery equipment.
When I posted I was instead thinking of the aspects of knowing your range and abilities.
I set my smoothbores for fifty yards, that’s their effective range for me. Not fifty five, not sixty if it’s a good shot. My range is fifty, and I doubt very much if I’ve ever went over forty.
I would say that successful archery hunters do the same thing. They have a max range and don’t violate it.
I’ve let shots go I could easily take with a ml rifle, but it was just a tad to far. I’ve had deer hide in persimmon groves, thirty yards away I couldn’t get a good clear shot at.
I ‘spect most successful archery hunters have done the same.
As a Hunter has put muleie roast in the pot with archery you sure could with a .45.... if you treat the gun with a set of rules and don’t violate them, period.
There is no ‘better’ means of hunting, there are bad kills or worse, wounded and lost game because bad shots or out of range shots were taken.
A .45 SMR is not a 45-70 Sharps a .50 isn’t a BAR.
Should you want to do a .45 fire mule deer you have to be careful of your range and shots.

I have a 400fps Ravin R26 Crossbow that'll give me 3" groups at 100y and that's not even the extent of it's range. I wouldn't pull the trigger on a deer with it beyond 40y like I don't beyond 75y with my AM .58. Hunt within yourself and according to your moral code. Shooting an animal always hurts my heart a tad and I think people who love animals make much better and more ethical hunters....

 

[LME]

I have a 400fps Ravin R26 Crossbow that'll give me 3" groups at 100y and that's not even the extent of it's range. I wouldn't pull the trigger on a deer with it beyond 40y like I don't beyond 75y with my AM .58. Hunt within yourself and according to your moral code. Shooting an animal always hurts my heart a tad and I think people who love animals make much better and more ethical hunters....

The hurting heart comes with age! I had a deer come so near to me that I could almost spit on him. I had a 45/70 aimed in his direction and couldn't pull the trigger? Things have changed since I was a young lad.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

I've always admired the Hungarian guy that posts the videos on the Cap and Ball channel.

The respect shown the animal being hunted in Europe on video, compared to the vast majority of American hunting videos, is well.beyond NIGHT & DAY.

A person has to first respect themselves before they can respect anything else....the law in any of its forms, hunting ethics, social mores, etc.

What is more important, a set of large horns/antlers, or not taking a questionable shot?

What is more important, not taking that questionable shot at twilight on the last day of deer season, when you have been skunked for 2 years in a row previously?

Each person picking up a .45 caliber rifle will have to decide for themselves how many pounds of powder/lead will need to be expended in order to feel competent in the field.