.45 Flintlock Powder Tests including Pyrodex and Triple 7

[Herb]

This follows the test I did with my GRRW Leman percussion rifle, see that forum first. I shot Trenton's .45 Lancaster (or whatever I made) today to compare it to the GRRW Leman. It has a 36" Green Mountain barrel and Chambers Classic lock with a single trigger. The muzzle is slightly coned. This is the rifle Trenton wants in Hawaii, if he can get real black powder to use in it. Pyrodex and Triple 7 will work flawlessly, but a booster and prime of real black powder is necessary.



I used .440 Hornady balls and .015 OxYoke patches with wool Over Powder Wads for Pyrodex and Triple 7. I started with 70 grains of Goex 3F but I think two patches blew. This might be the most accurate load with a better patch. I forgot my cleaning patches but wiped the bore after this group with a shooting patch. Velocity was about 40 fps less than the Leman. Target 2 was 70 grains of Goex 2F at 1736. One patch may have blown. Velocity the same as the Leman. Did not wipe the bore.



Target 3 was the same 70 grain measure but Pyrodex P. I filled the measure 1/8" from the top (no settling) and topped it off with Goex 3F from a powder horn. Poured that into the bore, which put the five-grain black powder booster at the flash hole. Forgot the OPW for the first shot, then used one for each shot from here on. Primed the pan with about 3 grains of Goex 4F from a TOW flint priming flask. Did not pick the vent the whole test. No wiping or cleaning from here on. Velocity 1820 fps compared to 1965 in the Leman with identical components. Don't know why the difference. If weather holds, I'll shoot this test with the two rifles again.



Target 4 the same but Pyrodex RS. A good load. Velocity 18 fps faster than the Leman.

 

[Herb]

Target 5 was Triple 7 3F in a 50 grain Goex 2F measure filled 1/4" from the top (different shape) then topped off with Goex 3F as a booster. OPW. 1785 fps, same as 70 grains of Goex 3F.



Target 6 was ditto but 50 grains of Triple 7 2F at 1772 fps compared to 1757 for the Leman. Compared to 70 grains of Goex 2F at 1737 fps.

Of 21 shots with Pyrodex and Triple 7, every ignition was normal. Though this was to compare velocities, Pyrodex RS grouped well in both rifles.





The rear sight was a Jim Bridger 15/16 (TOW RS-KC-16) where I soldered a filler between the horns and filed a round groove. The front sight was FS-DRU-BB, about .070 thick. I hold it halfway up the widest diameter of the hole, at 6 o'clock. The hole could be bigger, .180 is a good size. It is a good sight for poor eyesight (mine is good so far).

 

[Herb]

It is curious how the different powders shoot different group patterns to various points of impact. All holding was about the same, lighting was similar, so these group patterns show how the rifles throw these balls. Probably any powder could be adjusted in load or patch to shoot tight groups, but that was not my concern in this test.





The OxYoke lable and the JoAnn label for the thin linen. Not a good patch. Could not find my thick JoAnn linen, but here is info on it. Grey color, probably 44" wide. You could buy a 2" strip to test it. JoAnn always has coupon discounts so if you like it you can get it for perhaps half this $19.95 price. Then the shrunken wool sweater cut with 3/4" gasket punch for Over Powder Wads. Top measure is a 7mm Rem Mag fired case cut off at the shoulder, my 70 grain measure. Bottom is a .308 fired case, holds 50 grains of Goex 2F and 3F. With Pyrodex or Triple 7, fill it to the base of the neck and top it off with Goex 2F or 3F, about 5 grains, for the booster. Not necessary to use 4F. It is easier to just fill it up and tap it to settle the powder to the base of the neck, then top it with black powder.

A comparison of the rifles and powders. Maybe more later if the weather holds.

 

[Homesteader]

That's exhaustive testing, for which I say... :hatsoff:

We charcoal burners have a long way to go to get our best load, something modern CF shooters may never understand. It's always good to see someone going the full mile. (Can't say I've done quite that much, btw.)

:thumbsup:

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Interesting info. Also interesting to point out that you are shooting combo loads with real BP on top of the imitation in the pan and loaded first down the barrel so you can get the substitutes to light. Without the real black powder kicker the substitutes are virtually worthless in a flintlock.

Easier to just use real Black Powder. However, it is very helpful if you only have a little real BP and plenty of the substitutes. You've demonstrated you can make it work well.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

Easier to just use real Black Powder.

Wish that was true. There are places where having real black is next to impossible. Shall we declare them "flinter-free zones" or learn how to work around the shortage?

 

[Rifleman1776]

Herb, I am always in awe of your skills and dedication to this avocation. Amazing. :bow:
You said:

the different powders shoot different group patterns to various points of impact

That is something many, even experienced ml shooters do not seem to understand. There are very few absolutes in this game. The "what should I use?" questions are no universal in results that will be obtained.
Carry on young man, I always look forward to your posts. :thumbsup:

 

[Livbucks]

I use 777 2f in my flintlock and it fires flawlessly. I prime with 4f Goex. I do not trickle charge or duplex as it is called. This works very well in a hunting situation or for a few shots at the range in my rifle. After several shots there becomes a crud ring in the barrel though.

 

[Col. Batguano]

You're a brave man to use a sub in a flinter. I don't want to have to pull a ball, and with a tight patch / ball combo the CO2 dischargers have a hard time blowing the load.

What would be fascinating to know is what the ignition / barrel dwell time would be with the various powders, as, they all have different pressure curves and burn rates. Without emperical evidence, and with the higher ignition temperature of a sub, I would be very surprised if the time to light it is as fast as real BP though. Though that doesn't affect intrinsic accuracy (a fuse you light with a match will be just as accurate as instantaneous ignition if the gun never moves), it's the combination of lock speed and barrel dwell as wielded by a wobbly human that makes the group size wider in a slow combo than in a fast one, and why almost everyone can shoot a cartridge gun better than a percussion gun, and then a flinter.

 

[Herb]

Nothing brave about it. Pyrodex and Triple 7 can be absolutely reliable in a flintlock. Just a matter of using them correctly as I have shown here. I have used them for testing purposes in .40, .45, .50, .54 and .58 caliber flintlocks (all I have).The only reason I have ever had to pull a ball is if I forgot to load the powder first (black at that), a couple of times in many thousands of shots.

 

[Livbucks]

I have a 1:48 barrel. I shoot either the Ball-et, GP bullet, TC maxi hunter or Powerbelt. If I would not get it to fire out (Hasn't happened yet), it would only take a minute to remove the breechplug and push it out. Take away the removeable breechplug and yes there could be a potential problem. I have a modern flintlock. I see where your point is.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I have a 1:48 barrel. I shoot either the Ball-et, GP bullet, TC maxi hunter or Powerbelt. If I would not get it to fire out (Hasn't happened yet), it would only take a minute to remove the breechplug and push it out. Take away the removeable breechplug and yes there could be a potential problem. I have a modern flintlock. I see where your point is.

Am I reading a rule violation?

We do not discuss modern (in-line) muzzleloading firearms.



4.We do not discuss copper and/or jacketed, plastic/polymer tipped bullets, sabots, power belts, or other 'plastic-wrapped' bullets.

 

[Livbucks]

I have a 1:48 barrel. I shoot either the Ball-et, GP bullet, TC maxi hunter or Powerbelt. If I would not get it to fire out (Hasn't happened yet), it would only take a minute to remove the breechplug and push it out. Take away the removeable breechplug and yes there could be a potential problem. I have a modern flintlock. I see where your point is.

Am I reading a rule violation?

We do not discuss modern (in-line) muzzleloading firearms.



4.We do not discuss copper and/or jacketed, plastic/polymer tipped bullets, sabots, power belts, or other 'plastic-wrapped' bullets.

I dont own an inline and I use lead conicals mostly and only mentioned the PB's. There was no discussion about them. They actually dont group worth a crap and when I use them up I will not be buying more. Now there is your discussion.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Glad you cleared that up! all those key words threw me for a loop. :grin:

Powerbelt, removeable breechplug, I have a modern flintlock

Question answered, thank you!

 

[Herb]

I went to JoAnns today to check on fabrics. That thick linen, "Robe ss natural linen #11770658" turns out to be 55% linen and 45% rayon. There was no label on the sample I got, but I looked it up on the JoAnn web site. I don't remember finding the patches I shot with this material, but they may have burned. It is not a proper patch material. JoAnn does have a good linen in the store. It is "Sew Classics 100% linen", sand color, 52" wide at $16.99 per yard. Their number is 01299189, which does not work in JoAnn's Search Box, but the name does. Mikes .012 on the ratchet and .007 crush. This is a good patch material. I wanted to buy a 2" strip to test, but they gave it to me as a sample.

Another good patch material many have commented on is "Utility Drill 40 unbleached", item 00683532, 100% cotton, 40" wide, $5.99 per yard. Again, that number does not work in the Search Box, but the description does. I bought 1/4 yard and will test these two fabrics next time I go out. It mikes .014 and .015 on the ratchet and .009 or .010 crushed. A good thickness.

 

[Heelerau]

Herb, is JoAnns located in Vernal?

Cheers from down under

Heeler

 

[Brokennock]

Now? Or 5 years ago when this thread was last active?




There is a Joanne's Fabric listed for Vernal, UT.
2089 W US-40, Vernal, UT 84078
(435) 781-1972

 

[Herb]

Hi, Gordon. Yes, JoAnn's is still here. These groups with a .45 are large, like with my .40's. I don't much care for .40's, just gave my Thomas Oldham sterling silver-mounted .40 Bedford rifle I made to a nephew in Des Moines, Iowa. I much prefer .50 or .54 caliber rifles for accuracy. And, I can't hold up a 42" barreled rifle any more. Come to think of it- I can't hold any of them up anymore without a rib support. I just brought a bottle of St. Jame School House white wine back from Wisconsin for Lynn, hope to see her and Neill in the next few days.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Herb I have just read over your tests and am impressed by your thourogh approach , even though I have never needed nor considered powders other than black in MLs.I know Gordon incidentaly. While I don't have a 40 cal flint rifle Ive made them and most 40 cal devotees ardently praise that caliber . One Bedford I made if in cap lock with a Douglass brl shoots wonderfully .But the only 40 cals I champion are smooth bores made into snap matchlocks for MLAIC international type events 55 yards O H , Nothing like a rifles surety but you need to keep inside the 9 or 10 rings to place at that level , That,s best 10 of 13 inside 6" or so best I ever did was 93 score which might worry a rabbit .What range are you shooting at by the way Regards Rudyard

 

[Herb]

Cheers, Rudyard. All my groups here were shot at 50 yards from bench rest. Nice to hear about your building and shooting. I see I misspelled St. JameS wine. Herb