.45 hunting loads?

[Moloch]

A friend of mine wants to take his new Hawken .45 to hunt small game and maybe deer, he is currently developing a load which is both powerful & accurate with round ball up to 100yds but with no luck.
He told me that he currently uses .440 patched ball with a tight patch, AFAIK it was .012 with ranges from 45 to 65 3F.
Its an Ardesa Hawken with 1:66 twist made for roundball, but at 50yds. his shots are all over the target, not to mention 100yds. The shot patches look good, not burned or shredded, couldnt help him at all as it was totally puzzeling. Swiss 2FG didnt help at all. Usually such ainncuracy is caused by patches not tight enough, but the ball-patch combo loads hard and tight enough for me.

Any advice for a .45 Hawken for hunting? I read in several topics that some people use charges up to 70 grain, and thats without cleaning between the shots. :hmm:

I know that there are many factors involved in muzzleloader accuracy, but I couldnt find any problems with his gear and loads. Iam sure that lower loads would be much more accurate, but I dont think that hunting with a .45 roundball with less than 40 grains is a good idea. :shake:

 

[longcruise]

new Hawken

Maybe needs a bit of breaking in?

Did I understand correctly that he is loading .440 ball and .012 patch thickness?

If so, his bore might be on the smallish side. My .45 loads a .445 ball with a patch thicker than .012 and it is pretty much right on as far as bore size goes. He might want to try a .437, .435 or .433 ball with that same patching or some different patches just for the sake of experimentation.

Also worthwhile to look very carefully at the fired patches. Poor patching doesn't always blow out or burn up, sometimes it just shows minor fraying where it rides between the ball and the bore but just that little bit can hurt accuracy.

It is perplexing.

 

[roundball]

A friend of mine wants to take his new Hawken .45 to hunt small game and maybe deer, he is currently developing a load which is both powerful & accurate with round ball up to 100yds but with no luck.
He told me that he currently uses .440 patched ball with a tight patch, AFAIK it was .012 with ranges from 45 to 65 3F.
Its an Ardesa Hawken with 1:66 twist made for roundball, but at 50yds. his shots are all over the target, not to mention 100yds. The shot patches look good, not burned or shredded, couldnt help him at all as it was totally puzzeling. Swiss 2FG didnt help at all. Usually such ainncuracy is caused by patches not tight enough, but the ball-patch combo loads hard and tight enough for me.

Any advice for a .45 Hawken for hunting? I read in several topics that some people use charges up to 70 grain, and thats without cleaning between the shots. :hmm:

I know that there are many factors involved in muzzleloader accuracy, but I couldnt find any problems with his gear and loads. Iam sure that lower loads would be much more accurate, but I dont think that hunting with a .45 roundball with less than 40 grains is a good idea. :shake:

Based upon everything you've said my thoughts are:

1) IMO, .012" patches are awfully thin...I also use .440s but with .018" - .020" pillow ticking patches prelubed with Natural Lube 1000, in a TC .45cal x 1:66" barrel.

2) My deer hunting loads are 90grns Goex 3F with an Oxyoke prelubed wad over the powder, then the patched ball...accuracy has always been excellent.

 

[paulvallandigham]

First, he has to use calipers to measure the bore diameter( land to land) and th groove diameter and depth of grooves in that gun. It sounds like his patch is too thin. I would try .015, then, .017, .019, and .020" thick patching to see if the rifle would not group. Many of the Hawken style repros have very deep rifling, and you need that thick patching to fill those grooves.

Tell you friend that IF he likes how that .012" patch loads, THEN he needs to try using a filler , like Corn Meal, between the powder and his PRB to seal powder gases. About 20 grains by volume is enough to seal the gases behind the PRB, even with those deep grooves.

I hope these wide variations are the result of him shooting off a rest on a bench, and not shooting off-hand. Many guys think they are great off-hand shooters, when they aren't. When working up loads, eliminate all human errors as possible. I even will put a scope on a New MLer i am working loads up for to get rid of sighting errors using my old eyes and open sights. Its a temporary thing, and when I get a good load, I remove the scope and use the open sights from then on.

 

[flintlock75]

When I lived back east i hunted with a flintlock kentuky rifle in .45 cal. the deer hunting load i worked up to was 80gr of 3F, .440 PRB. this load was plenty accurate 1-2" groups offhand at 50 yards. I used 65grs of 3F for hunting woodchucks in the summer this load was accurate enough to hit woodchucks out to 100 yards from a rest. I dont know how much experience your friend has at muzzleloader shooting. Have you shot the gun in question? It could just be the shooter.A friend of mine had the same problem with his trade pistol and thought it to be inaccurate, I shot his gun and kept the shots in the black,
problem not the gun. muzzleloader accuracy is a matter of trial and error to come up with a load the gun likes. It also takes alot of practice.
Is he shooting from a solid rest? I would start with 50grs 3F .440 ball at 25 yards from a bench and see what happens. The first thing i would do is mike the bore and verify the diameter land to land and groove to groove. The rifle my have an oversize bore. Some 45 cal guns use .445 balls.
I would check the bore size first and go from there. good luck

 

[paulvallandigham]

You have not given the barrel length or even the brand of the gun your friend has, so its a bit difficult to give good advice about powder charges. If the barrel is 32 inches, a common length for Hawken style guns, the Davenport formula says that you can burn 58.5 grains of powder in that barrel efficiently. Davenport would tell your friend to back that maximum charge off 10% or by 6 grains, to find an accurate load of 52 grains. That does not mean you can't burn more powder. I fired 50 grains of FFFg powder in my .45 and it only had a 25 inch barrel!!! :shocked2: The Davenport formula, which I learned years after I sold the gun, BTW, says the maximum efficient load for that short barrel was 45.7 grains!

I did not have my chronograph when I owned that rifle, but did shoot it over someone elses chronograph to see what I was getting. I don't remember those numbers, now, so they can't be any help, but I was impressed with the little rifle. Velocity was in the 1400 fps. range. Out to 50 yards, that is good enough to take any deer.

I personally don't consider a .45 RB to be a 100 yard deer round. 60-75 yards, tops, and 50 yards and under preferred. Most whitetails are killed well inside 50 yards, and that is why so many states require shotguns using slugs be used during gun deer season. That .45 RB will lose about 25% of its muzzle velocity by the time it reaches 50 yards, so tell your friend to pick his shots.

 

[Moloch]

Thanks for the suggestions so far, he'll appreciate it. :thumbsup:

First, the mentioned rifle is an Ardesa Hawken woodsman .45 28'' barrel 1 in 66, cheap gun but the barrel looks very good with a bore sight.

I personally don't consider a .45 RB to be a 100 yard deer round. 60-75 yards, tops, and 50 yards and under preferred.

For 100yds he just wants to shoot rabbit and other small game from a rest, deer shots will be under or around 50yds only. Our woods dont allow shots over 50yds anyway.

I'll ask him again if the patch is really that thin, maybe I was wrong but I am pretty sure it was .012; and yes, he shot it from the bench only to sight it in, but with accuracy that bad its impossible.

I dont know how much experience your friend has at muzzleloader shooting. Have you shot the gun in question? It could just be the shooter.A friend of mine had the same problem with his trade pistol and thought it to.

I tried it once, was dead on center and hit about 15'' left at 50yds, barely on the target, after about 10 shots the hits on the target made a nice wide circle around the black, 40 grains or 60 grains of FFFG didnt matter at all.
The suggestion to get a slightly smaller bullet with a thicker patch sounds good, I'll tell him to try something in the range of .435 with a reasonable thight patch after he measured the bore.

My deer hunting loads are 90grns Goex 3F with an Oxyoke prelubed wad over the powder, then the patched ball...accuracy has always been excellent.

The powder charges you guys use for hunting always amaze me (in a good way), 90 grains in a .45 must put the bullet about 3'' up the breech and the report must be sharp. :shocked2: :grin: Any idea about the velocity with such a charge?

 

[roundball]

The powder charges you guys use for hunting always amaze me (in a good way), 90 grains in a .45 must put the bullet about 3'' up the breech and the report must be sharp. :shocked2: :grin: Any idea about the velocity with such a charge?

Just chronographed mine last Saturday:
This is the little place I have to shoot...the concrete bench is under a tin roof pole shelter, off to one side of what is actually an action pistol shooting club with several berms off to my left. The berm in the photo is at 50 yards, the long stretch is 300 yards, and target stands can be placed anywhere down it’s length. I chronographed the .45cal today...stats are underneath the 3 photos.
.45CAL T/C HAWKEN FLINTLOCK WITH 70'S VINTAGE REFINISHED STOCK

"MY VERSION OF A "PRIMITIVE SHOOTING BAG"

PACT PRO MK5 CHRONOGRAPH SKY SCREENS COME PERMANENTLY MOUNTED ON A 24" BAR, SITS ON A TRIPOD I HAD, 15' CORDS PLUG INTO UNIT ON BENCH

VELOCITY TESTS - .45cal Flintlock
T/C .45cal 15/16” x 32” Flint barrel
1:66" round ball twist
.018" T/C NL1000 pillow ticking
Hornady .440 balls
Wiped the bore after every shot
Pact Pro MK5 Chronograph at 15 feet
Goex 3F powder charges
Average velocity rounded off to nearest 5 fps

30grns = 1155 fps
40grns = 1290 fps
50grns = 1435 fps
60grns = 1560 fps
70grns = 1590 fps
80grns = 1720 fps
90grns = 1805 fps
100grns = 1870 fps

 

[Moloch]

1870 fp/s, thats HOT, that gives about 900 ft/lbs which is pretty close to .44mag level.
70 grains for 1590 fp/s seems to be a pretty nice medicore hunting and target shooting load in a long barreled rifle.

I'll report back when he he hits the range again.

 

[roundball]

1870 fp/s, thats HOT.
70 grains for 1590 fp/s seems to be a pretty nice medicore hunting and target shooting load in a long barreled rifle.

AND......TC's data charts shows even higher velocities using 2F out of a 28" barrel:
110grns 2F = 2158 fps

But the charts were developed back in the 70's, no idea what the powder characteristics were backi then, it was probably a caplock or special pressure test barrel instead of a flintlock with a large vent hole, etc.

But they're just numbers...I've taken a few deer with heart shots using this load and they've all gone down within sight so it seems fine

 

[Moloch]

Just a question, what kind of fouling do you get with eas example 70 grains of FFFG in a 28 long barrel? Is swapping the barrel each shot required?

 

[roundball]

Just a question, what kind of fouling do you get with eas example 70 grains of FFFG in a 28 long barrel? Is swapping the barrel each shot required?

I don't get much fouling because of the lube I use, and usually don't wipe between shots just shooting at the range.
However, if I'm sighting in a load I "clean" the bore between each shot because I want each shot to be out of a clean cold barrel.

For the chronograph testing I didn't "clean" the bore between shots, but I did "wipe" the bore with damp/wet patches of Hoppes between each shot to try and maintain a reasonably consistent bore condition from shot to shot.

 

[Idaho Ron]

The two 45 cal loads I like a lot in my Renegade are a 475 gr Lyman whitworth bullet over 90 gr of Pyrodex P. This load is 1380 FPS out of a 32" barrel.
The other load is a Paper Patched 385 gr 45-70 bullet over 80 gr of pyrodex P. i used to shoot it with 90 gr at 1460 FPS. I got better groups at 150 and 200 yards with 80 gr. I don't clean between 5 shot groups. Ron

 

[roundball]

IR, is the .45cal barrel from GM?

 

[Idaho Ron]

Yes, it is a 1-18 twist. Ron

 

[BrownBear]

This may have nothing at all to do with accuracy in your friend's 45, but here's another thing you can add to the list of things to watch:

In my both my 32 and 36 cal, inconsistent seating pressure on the ball can really raise cobb with group size. It doesn't seem to be a big issue with my 54, but my 50 can be a little touchy with lighter loads. I don't own a 45, but since it falls somewhere in my own range of calibers, I'm curious. I'm in the habit now of trying to be consistent in seatin pressure now, but I don't know if your friend has thought to watch that. My group sizes were never as bad as what you describe, so other factors may be at work.

 

[Vaino]

When I first started squirrel hunting w/ a MLer I experienced vertical shot stringing if the bore wasn't wiped at the end of 5-6 shots. The squirrels were all head hit but then as more shots were taken after the 5th or 6th w/o wiping, misses ensued. Well, I thought the POI had changed so took a shot at a piece of bark and the shot was high. Cleaned the bore, continued hunting and on the first squirrel held low and hit low and threw the squirrel away. Have you experienced vertical shot strings caused by fouling?.....Fred

 

[roundball]

Have you experienced vertical shot strings caused by fouling?

No, haven't had that particular situation come up

 

[tg]

I have had several .45 rifles with barrels from 33 thru 42 inch long and 1/48 and 1/66 twiat and all have shot well enough with a 70 gr load of 3f for deer hunting, I can't recall the 100 yd groups as I did not seriously sight in for that range with that cal. for deer hunting.I think I was getting 2-2 1/2 inch groups off a bench at 75yds or pretty close to that if I recall.

 

[roundball]

I think I was getting 2-2 1/2 inch groups off a bench at 75yds or pretty close to that if I recall.

And for what its worth, anything under 3" at distance with deer hunting loads and open sights is fine