.45 loads

[buggybuilder]

I know this subject has been discussed about a million times but.....
I'm having trouble with my T/C .45
I tried and want to continue to use a patch round ball load in this rifle.
It is TC Hawken .45 veneir rear tang site with proper front globe and post insert. I'm using a .440 round ball and a .015 ticking patch. They go in extremely hard....so much that the ball and rod rip thru the patch. I was also using a over the powder wad. This was washed ticking. Where do you fellows get you .010 patches from? I have tried FFG and FFFG. I like the FFFG better, much cleaner.
Any suggestions on how to shrink my 4" group at 50 yds? I also tried the 250 gr Real bullet with 65 gr. FFG powder and bore butter with wad ....groups were not impressive with that either.
I would like to stay with the round ball load if possible but would switch to a bullet if nothing else works.
Thanks for any help!

 

[musketman]

A .440 round ball and a .015 ticking patch sounds right, could be something else causing the problem.

How does the bore feel when cleaning?
Does the cleaning patch seem to drag?

Sounds like you may have to do some barrel lapping to get the bore smoother.

Here is a post that covers basic barrel lapping.

Hand Lapping A Barrel

This will also help when loading the rifle, less friction being generated.

 

[Lonegun1894]

I am assuming this is a 1:48 twist rifle, right? I haven't shot a .45, but the .50 TC a friend had for some time shot great. The main issue that sticks out right away in your comments is that the patch is tearing when you load. I'd say find a patch and ball combination that doesnt tear the patch first. Either a thinner patch, or maybe a smaller ball, possibly both. Either way, it should not tear. Your patches should be almost good enough to use again after you've fired them. My Lyman and CVAs certainly dont act like that, but they used to...

 

[longfowler]

I used to buy the prelubed oxyoke patches, in .010, but just started using some "homespun" cotton plaid material I got at wall-mart, it mics out at .011-.012. I also have a bag of .433 balls I shoot out of my old cva, I don't know where they came from but they sure do load easy!

 

[rafterob]

What are you using for lube? I would dump the over the powder wad-ticking for now. What brand of balls or are you casting your own? Normally that .440 ball and .015 patch would be fine in that rifle. I would start with a thinner patch material first, anything 100% cotton will work. Load 45-55 grains 3f. Is that 4" group off a bench or offhand? 4" groups offhand at 50 yards is typical for us hackers. 4" off a bench and there are some problems. If that is the case, along with the patch and loading issues, I would say lap the barrel and possibly recrown the barrel.

 

[roundball]

"...I'm using a .440 round ball and a .015 ticking patch. They go in extremely hard....so much that the ball and rod rip thru the patch..."

Dusty, something doesn't sound right about that at all...my load in TC .45s is a Hornady .440 with a TC .018" pillow ticking patch, and they're easy to load.

If you have access to a mic or caliper, the first suggestion I'd offer is to actually measue the balls...you might have a batch that are supposed to be .440's but might be something larger.
I bought a couple dozen boxes of Remington .570's for my .58cal but they mic'ed .575"-.577" and were very hard to start of course.

But true .440's in a TC .45cal barrel should thumb start with a .015" patch...and if I may say so, IMO, going to a .010" patch is the wrong approach.
There's something at work there that you need to chase down to the root cause and eliminate it...not compensate for it by using paper thin patches which could then cause you a new set of problems, like patch through and carrying less lube into the bore, etc.

 

[Billnpatti]

I'll agree with Roundball on this one. I think you may have a problem with the balls being larger than they are supposed to be. I also agree with him on the thicker is better idea for the patching. You want something sort of like pillow ticking as your patch material. Once you get the suspected ball problem solved, I recommend that you get Dutch Schultz' accuracy techique and use it to find the absolutley best load that your rifle likes. I am not sure what Dutch's address is but you can Google "Dutch Scultz Accuracy"and it will probably pop up. I think he charges something like $15 for sending you a copy but it will be money very well spent.

 

[J.D.]

I know this subject has been discussed about a million times but.....
I'm having trouble with my T/C .45
I tried and want to continue to use a patch round ball load in this rifle.
It is TC Hawken .45 veneir rear tang site with proper front globe and post insert. I'm using a .440 round ball and a .015 ticking patch. They go in extremely hard....so much that the ball and rod rip thru the patch. I was also using a over the powder wad. This was washed ticking. Where do you fellows get you .010 patches from? I have tried FFG and FFFG. I like the FFFG better, much cleaner.
Any suggestions on how to shrink my 4" group at 50 yds? I also tried the 250 gr Real bullet with 65 gr. FFG powder and bore butter with wad ....groups were not impressive with that either.
I would like to stay with the round ball load if possible but would switch to a bullet if nothing else works.
Thanks for any help!

Patch Lube? Do these loads start hard from the beginning, or do they get harder to load as you shoot?

 

[buggybuilder]

This is the first time anyone has ever told me that my balls are too big!

 

[buggybuilder]

Every shot loads hard. I wipe between every shot. I was using SPEER .440 round balls.

 

[musketman]

I'm using a .440 round ball and a .015 ticking patch. They go in extremely hard....so much that the ball and rod rip thru the patch.

Is the patching material fresh? What I mean is can you rip it by hand, sometimes old patched dry rot and the fibers get real weak and tear easy.

Try using old blue jeans for patching, denim is a tough fabric with a tight weave.

Did you but this gun new or used?

 

Dusty,

FWIW, i pulled out an old tin of pre-lubed patches once that were probly two years old and those patches tore while loading. The lube, i believe, deteriorated the patch material.

If this is not a factor in your case, then check the size of your balls.
Try a .433 with .015 or .018 patching. :v

 

[roundball]

"...patches once that were probly two years old and those patches tore while loading. The lube, i believe, deteriorated the patch material..."

Just for some additional thoughts on this point, since the mid '90's as I would run across a small garage busiess having a clearance sale, or some online auctions with a lot of BP stuff for sale I was able to wheel & deal to get dirt cheap prices by buying all the patches they might have had...1000, 2000, 3000 prelubed patches at a time.

I accumulated up around 12,000-15,000 patches that way for only a couple bucks/100...plain cotton and pillow ticking, under all labels like T/C, Traditions, CVA, Remington, and Oxyoke (although all Oxyoke origin I'm sure). They already had some age on them when I bought them and now some lots are probably 20 years old...and I've always kept them sealed in ziploc bags in storage boxes in the garage, away from any heat or sunlight and they all continue to work just fine.

So I'm wondering if patch material is actually deteriorating somehow, could it be from the way it's been stored as opposed to simply being lubed...the reason being that I've never experienced that problem with any of these prelubed patches in this entire inventory and they've been lubed for an awful lot of years.

The only patches I've ever had tear at the muzzle were when I was using a two foot length of 2x4 and a short starter trying to seat oversized .577" balls in a .58cal using .018" pillow ticking patches, and those patches were actually fairly new.

 

[MikeChapin]

Hard loading with the combo you are using sounds strange for a T/C. That is the patch/ball combo that most people use and it is not particularly hard to load. You want the patch/ball combo to be snug and short start with a slap on the starter. The ball should go down smoothly after that.

As far as accuracy goes, you haven't mentioned what powder charge you are using. The .45 in a 1:48 twist barrel is not as cranky about powder charge as a .50 or .54 but it still can be picky.

You should start at about 40 grains and shoot a five shot group. Go up 5 grains and shoot another 5 shots and so on. At some load you will see the group tighten and then spread with the next increment. Your best load is the tightest group. Your best load should give you one ragged hole at 50 yards off a bench.

 

[bwhoffman]

Here is some eye opening info....

Not every pack of patches mics to what it is labeled.
.440 balls are not always .440. nor any other ball for that matter.

Not every mold casts a ball as labled and also different alloys can leave the mold larger than desired.

Micrometers and calibers CAN read different for diffferent people. its in how you use them and IF they have been calibrated to a certified known standard (ie calibration block)

if I go with the clutch, my measurement will be larger than someone using the same device that tightens using the knob or no clutch until he thinks "that feels about right".

its about "repeatability, calibration and tolerances".

I read somewhere on the LEE site I beleive, that there is an allowable tolerance in their mold of minus.000/ plus.003.
I have a handfull of their molds in .395, .490 that cast PURE SOFT LEAD balls at .002-.003 oversize.

Patch material.....I can read it different than someone else for the same reasons.

Labeling on the packaging...the manufacturer has allowable tolerences as well!

point being, a good calibrated measuring device used the same way each time and measuring a sampling of your components will tell you what you have.

My thought on the original post is probably an issue of a slightly "too thick" patch and possibly a round ball cast from wheel weights.

My thoughts, for what they are worth!

 

[buggybuilder]

I was using Goex 3F..I tried 60 and 65 gr. no difference between the two as far as how they print on the target. For patches I was using twice washed .018 pillow ticking from Walmart. Bore butter for lube. I miked all of my round balls this morning and they all are .440 either Hornady or Speer. The TC manual only gives load receipes for 2F powder, where are you fellows getting your 3F info from? I did use at one point some old TC prelubed patches that I freshened with new butter and this made no difference either.
I did lap the barrel this morning and there was only a slight resistance at least half way down the barrel...but my loading problem is on the top end.
Thanks for all of your suggestions and also anything new that you would care to share.

 

[hanshi]

I've found best results usually come from a smaller ball and a good, thick patch. Pillow ticking, IMHO, is very good. You may have an undersized bore; it happens. I suggest you go to a .435 ball. Lee makes excellent, inexpensive molds and I believe you can order one in .435 or .433. Either will do fine. Cast from pure lead, only. Balls cast from ww & other alloys will be .005-.006 oversize.

 

[J.D.]

but my loading problem is on the top end.

By the top end, I assume the crown could use some work.

Try removing the line that delineates the crown from the bore using 120 grit paper with your thumb as a backing. Once a slight radius is formed, progress to 400-600 grit for final polish.

Remove the barrel from the stock, and rotate the barrel 1/8 turn every coupla minutes to keep the radius even.

A friend, who introduced me to the radiused muzzle, is an accuracy freak who shoots bore size balls with thick patching.

I used the technique to improve loading on a coupla my guns. They both shoot to the same point of aim with as good or better accuracy than prior to the modification.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dusty: What is the ACTUAL bore diameter of your T/C .45 caliber barrel???? To the thousandth of an inch, Please?? Most come in at .451". This is the land to land diameter. Groove diameter is larger.

This is a used barrel. Did someone by any chance " Season " the barrel, per the instructions in the old T/C user manual???? Doing so will reduce the diameter of both the Grooves and Lands, making the bore a tight fit for the normal, .440 diameter balls.

Trying to help. :thumbsup:

 

RB,

Those old patches that tore on me were not hermetically sealed in any way. They were in a small tin, in an old shot pouch. Of course my reasoning might be askew. i just assumed it was cause they were old and had deteriorated, but perhaps it was another cause??

Nevertheless, now i put together my patch tins just before an outing. no problems.
:v