45 Seneca Trouble

[Bassdog1]

I got a really nice 45 Seneca Barrel from Track Of The Wolf a few weeks ago and for the life of me I cant get it to shoot right. All shots are high regardless of patch and ball combo and sights are bottomed out. Patches are shredded on one side even after polishing bore and muzzle and firing over 100 shots. Not real handy in the shop or my next step would be to put traditional sights on that I could lower the rear a bit more. I am going to do a little more on the bore and muzzle and shoot some more but I have never had a TC Barrel this far off 8 Inches high at 50 yards.

 

[SDSmlf]

How high is the front sight? Maybe previous owner cut it down?

 

[Bassdog1]

Front and rear sights are factory Seneca sights. I bottomed rear sight out and bury the front sight as deep in the notch as I can to stay on the target. Also using a six Oclock hold on an eight inch circle but still shooting way above it.

 

[Winchester97]

Might just need a higher dovetail front sight. Pretty easy to file down to fit with a small triangular file. Just keep the original sight, and no harm done if you decide to sell later on.

 

[Bad Karma]

I got a really nice 45 Seneca Barrel from Track Of The Wolf a few weeks ago and for the life of me I cant get it to shoot right. All shots are high regardless of patch and ball combo and sights are bottomed out. Patches are shredded on one side even after polishing bore and muzzle and firing over 100 shots. Not real handy in the shop or my next step would be to put traditional sights on that I could lower the rear a bit more. I am going to do a little more on the bore and muzzle and shoot some more but I have never had a TC Barrel this far off 8 Inches high at 50 yards.

I raised the front sight on mine. Lowering the rear would have forced me to remove material from the stock To accommodate my face. I have a lean face and I have no idea how t/c expected people to shoot these rifles with the stock sights.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Front and rear sights are factory Seneca sights. I bottomed rear sight out and bury the front sight as deep in the notch as I can to stay on the target. Also using a six Oclock hold on an eight inch circle but still shooting way above it.

You need to sight in with the front sight even with the TOP of the rear sight slot. Shooting your new barrel with the front sight at the bottom of the rear sight slot will raise bullet impact. Front sight up, bullet down. Front sight down, bullet up.
Hope this helps.
Larry

 

[user 48679]

You need to sight in with the front sight even with the TOP of the rear sight slot.

hooting your new barrel with the front sight at the bottom of the rear sight slot will raise bullet impact.

Front sight up, bullet down. Front sight down, bullet up.
Hope this helps.
Larry

Er, with all due respect, holding the sight lower or higher in the rear sight notch isn't the solution.

The correct sight height relationship to the point of impact is:

With the rear sight in the middle of it's elevation adjustment range:

The higher the top of front sight height is from the bore C/L, the lower the bullet impact on the target

The lower the top of the front sight height from the bore C/L, the higher the bullet impact on the target

The OP needs to measure how much higher the bullet's POI is from the POA @ 100yds - then use a sight height calculator (below) to determine what height a new front should be in order to zero the rifle.

https://www.brownells.com/aspx/learn/learndetail.aspx?lid=13186

 

[necchi]

I'm thinkin ya need to make sure the hook is fitting proper and the lug key doesn't have slop.
It shouldn't be like that if the fit is proper. Ya gotta remember, if you got a Seneca barrel it's 30+yrs old and been through a lot of hands long before TOW got it

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Er, with all due respect, holding the sight lower or higher in the rear sight notch isn't the solution.

The correct sight height relationship to the point of impact is:

With the rear sight in the middle of it's elevation adjustment range:

The higher the top of front sight height is from the bore C/L, the lower the bullet impact on the target

The lower the top of the front sight height from the bore C/L, the higher the bullet impact on the target

The OP needs to measure how much higher the bullet's POI is from the POA @ 100yds - then use a sight height calculator (below) to determine what height a new front should be in order to zero the rifle.

https://www.brownells.com/aspx/learn/learndetail.aspx?lid=13186

Thanks for the reply. Your comment is exactly what I am saying. If he doesn't start with the correct sight picture, he can't measure up or down with any base!
He needs to start where I said for sight picture and determine bullet impact, then go from there.
Larry

 

[Rifleman1776]

Might just need a higher dovetail front sight. Pretty easy to file down to fit with a small triangular file. Just keep the original sight, and no harm done if you decide to sell later on.

Perfect advice. File yerself a dovetail and insert a patridge type blade front sight. Shoot and file down that front sight a little tiny bit at a time until your group is where you want it. Doing something like this is a sorta standard procedure when dialing in a new rifle. It is just part of the game and gives you an excuse to do more shooting.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Perfect advice. File yerself a dovetail and insert a patridge type blade front sight. Shoot and file down that front sight a little tiny bit at a time until your group is where you want it. Doing something like this is a sorta standard procedure when dialing in a new rifle. It is just part of the game and gives you an excuse to do more shooting.

He is shooting with a sight picture of burying the front sight at the bottom of his rear sight. Question: Don't you think he should use a sight picture with the front being flush with the top of the rear sight slot first? That is the way I do it, but does not mean I am correct.
Thanks
Larry

 

[Winchester97]

He is shooting with a sight picture of burying the front sight at the bottom of his rear sight. Question: Don't you think he should use a sight picture with the front being flush with the top of the rear sight slot first? That is the way I do it, but does not mean I am correct.
Thanks
Larry

You are right, That would be the correct sight picture, but I think it was already shooting way high, and he tried the lower sight picture to compensate, but it was still not enough. So would either need a lower rear, or higher front to correct it

 

[SDSmlf]

If I remember correctly, the distance between the sights on a Seneca barrel is about 20”. If 8” high at 50 yards, in theory, a .089” height adjustment to the sights would need to be made. I’d probably get a front sight about .100” taller to allow for some adjustment with the rear sight. Could always take some off the replacement front sight if you found it too high for your liking.

I got a really nice 45 Seneca Barrel from Track Of The Wolf a few weeks ago

And we now have a possible reason why the previous owner sold barrel.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

You are right, That would be the correct sight picture, but I think it was already shooting way high, and he tried the lower sight picture to compensate, but it was still not enough. So would either need a lower rear, or higher front to correct it

If he was shooting high before he changed sight picture to having the front sight at the bottom of the rear sight slot, he then raised POI ! He could very well need a higher front sight.
Thanks
Larry

 

[blackpowder shooter]

What powder charge are you using ?
Sounds like the barrel might need some hand lapping.

 

[Bassdog1]

Thanks for all of the replies guys. I started sighting in with the rear sight set near the middle of its adjustment range and the front blade even with the top of the notch shot over the top of the 18 inch target. Adjusted the rear down as far as it would go hit the top of the target. Started moving the front sight lower in the notch and things improved some but not enough. I believe I need to find a taller front sight. Shooting sixty grains 3 F and a .440 ball with a .018 ticking patch lubed with mink oil. Owned several of these guns and never experienced this issue with any of them. Is there a sight that has the same dove tail as a Seneca front sight? I have only shot factory guns but have the tools to replace the front sight. Barrel appeared to be unfired when I got it bore is crisp and shiny with no pitting. Barrel fits nicely in the stock with no play. Thanks for all the help I have no doubt I will eventually get it where it shoots well just maybe not before Indiana Muzzle loader season.

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

I think I would start shooting from a bagged rest. That would eliminate most of the human error. Maybe three to five shots with 45 gr, all holding the same point of aim. Increase your charge 5 gr increments until you think it is starting to settle. Then adjust your sights. Start again. Also check to make sure the sights aren’t loose. As has been mentioned, check the wedge. If the barrel is loose, try putting a piece of masking tape along the bottom barrel flat in the stock to tighten up the barrel slightly.

 

[user 48679]

Is there a sight that has the same dove tail as a Seneca front sight ?

My Seneca took a standard 3/8" dovetail front sight of the proper height (after using the calculator above)

Just browse all the sight maker's sights to see what your druthers are for the sight type.

Once the height needed is determined, you can chose from plain posts, ivory or gold beads in small (1/16") or large (3/32") sizes, fiber-optic sights of various colors ( for color blind correction), and a square/gold slanted section of the rear/top of a post.

 

[bang]

Temp glue something to the front sight that is easy to trim. Make it .2 higher. Shoot and trim till you get it where you want the get a new front sight to match it.

 

[Bassdog1]

Ill look for a new sight. Everything is tight on the gun. I like the idea of adding a temporary strip to the sight.