45 TC Hawken

[Hunter1457]

I have a 45 TC hawken kit gun that I got from a buddy and it will not shoot a group to save my life! He says it was from the early 70’s ( serial # K18853). Is this an early gun? I can’t see anything wrong with the rifling.

I’ve tried PRB with 2F and 3f, numerous charge sizes and patch thickness, as well as maxi balls. It has no consistency whatsoever. I’m swabbing between all shots.

I’m thinking of getting ahold of Mr. Hoyt to see about boring it out and lining to put a fast twist in it for conicals for deer hunting. I want to keep it as a 45 caliber.

Will a 1-32” twist work well with 45’s? I have a Lyman Great Plains Hunter 50 with that twist and it works well with conicals.

I have a stock pile of the TC 45 cal maxiballs as well as the No Excuses 385 grain .451 conicals, so those are the bullets I’ll be setting the barrel up for.

Has anyone done a 45 caliber bore/liner in a TC for conicals and had success?

Thanks

 

[BigAl52]

Call Bobby and tell him what you want to do. He knows what is best for the gun and barrel.

 

[CTShooter]

Maybe someone local could give it a look, sometimes a second set of eyes might notice something before you go and make a bunch of changes.

 

[SDSmlf]

I can’t see anything wrong with the rifling.

I’ve tried PRB with 2F and 3f, numerous charge sizes and patch thickness, as well as maxi balls. It has no consistency whatsoever. I’m swabbing between all shots.

First of all, welcome to the forum from North Carolina.

You are going to see a lot of comments on this one. For what it is worth, I have a number 45 caliber TCs with 1-48 twists that all seem to handle patched roundballs without much load development. Conicals can usually be made to work with the 1-48 bores, but personally, I just use different barrels/guns for conicals. I’ll start with a few questions. Please don’t take them personally, you have been here less than a week and we don’t know much about you or your experience.

• Are you experienced shooting traditional style muzzleloaders?
• How have you determined there is nothing wrong with the rifling?
• What charges have you tried?
• What size roundball are you using?
• What patch thicknesses have you tried? How have you measured it?
• What patch lubricant are you using?
• Why are you swabbing between shoots? What happens if you don’t swab?
• What is your ‘no consistency whatsoever’ accuracy? Distance and group size.

 

[William Lincoln]

SDSmlf is spot on,especially as to target results and load specifics. Back off the charge
maybe.

 

[bang]

The TC 45 I had liked 70gns of fff under 440/.015. Would put 8 of 10 in bull at 100 yards.
New barrel might need some break in.

 

[azmntman]

CHECK FOR LOOSE SCREWS IN SITES

 

[boker]

I had a 45 T/C. Killed two bucks and a coyote with patched rd balls. Sure wish i hadn’t sold it. Hope you get yours shooting straight.

 

[Grenadier1758]

As @azmntman suggests, test to see if the sights are loose. The rear sight has been seen to be a problem. When the kit was built, the sight dovetails may have been opened too much. One other place to inspect is the tang. It can be quite the assembly chore to get the hooked breech to perfectly match up with the tang. If that joint is loose @Hunter1457 may be having accuracy issues from the hooked breech not being solid in the tang.

 

[CTShooter]

This is one I would love to play with puzzles are so much fun

 

[Rifleman1776]

It should shoot a prb just fine. Getting to the right ball size, patch type, lube and charge can be time consuming. I agree with the others, an experienced ml friend who can give hands on help would be the best way for you to go. Good luck.

 

[Crow-Feather]

I have a 45 TC hawken kit gun that I got from a buddy and it will not shoot a group to save my life! He says it was from the early 70’s ( serial # K18853). Is this an early gun? I can’t see anything wrong with the rifling.

I’ve tried PRB with 2F and 3f, numerous charge sizes and patch thickness, as well as maxi balls. It has no consistency whatsoever. I’m swabbing between all shots.

I’m thinking of getting ahold of Mr. Hoyt to see about boring it out and lining to put a fast twist in it for conicals for deer hunting. I want to keep it as a 45 caliber.

Will a 1-32” twist work well with 45’s? I have a Lyman Great Plains Hunter 50 with that twist and it works well with conicals.

I have a stock pile of the TC 45 cal maxiballs as well as the No Excuses 385 grain .451 conicals, so those are the bullets I’ll be setting the barrel up for.

Has anyone done a 45 caliber bore/liner in a TC for conicals and had success?

Thanks

The odds are that it's not the riffling. I would believe that since it is a kit rifle, there is something that does not fit correctly and is causing the barrel to shift when fired. I had this with a factory rifle and discovered that the snail was rubbing against the top of the lock causing the shift in impact. Another rifle had the tang resting on a screw head so the tang would be level with the stock. Check the barrel snail, bottom side of the full barrel, and top side of the lock for signs of rubbing, You might save a bunch of money. Also check the fit tween the hammer and nipple. Make sure the hammer isn't rubbing against the side of the nipple. Check that the barrel is fully seated in the stock. The hammer blow on the nipple can cause movement in the barrel. Another part to check is that the lock is functioning without rubbing against anything that would change the speed of the ignition. Best of luck,

 

[Hunter1457]

First of all, welcome to the forum from North Carolina.

You are going to see a lot of comments on this one. For what it is worth, I have a number 45 caliber TCs with 1-48 twists that all seem to handle patched roundballs without much load development. Conicals can usually be made to work with the 1-48 bores, but personally, I just use different barrels/guns for conicals. I’ll start with a few questions. Please don’t take them personally, you have been here less than a week and we don’t know much about you or your experience.

• Are you experienced shooting traditional style muzzleloaders?
• How have you determined there is nothing wrong with the rifling?
• What charges have you tried?
• What size roundball are you using?
• What patch thicknesses have you tried? How have you measured it?
• What patch lubricant are you using?
• Why are you swabbing between shoots? What happens if you don’t swab?
• What is your ‘no consistency whatsoever’ accuracy? Distance and group size.

All good questions and no I don’t take anything on the internet personally!

I’ve been shoot traditional muzzleloader for about 5 years. Fairly seriously for deer hunting. I have a 50 cal New Englander that shots great with PRB and maxi balls. I have a Lyman GPH that shoots conicals very well. I thought this 45 Hawken would dial in just like my other 1:48 TC but it hasn’t happened yet.
When I got it, it was not a good look. It had been assembled poorly and was missing parts. I took it all apart, reblued the barrel and ordered all the missing stuff. I cleaned the bore out with 4O steel wool wrapped around a bronze brush and coated with JB bore paste and kroil. It looked good, no pits.

I bought new Speer 440 round balls, ox yoke pre lubed patches both in 0.010 and 0.015 as well as the pillow ticking 0.018.

I started off with 70 grains 3f Goex, then went to 80, 90 and back down to 60. All shooting 3 shot groups. Swabbed with either spit or bore cleaner between shots. I think the 70 grains did the best, I had 2 shots within 2” of each other, but then it would throw a flyer 12” or more high. Same loading process.

I tried maxi balls that I pan lubed with SPG and they were all over the target at 50 yards. Same powder charges, and tried 2f as well for lower pressure. Used a wool wad under the maxiball.

I took the rifle all apart tonight after cleaning it (hot soapy water with ramrod ‘pump’). I took some pictures of the bore and crown - I don’t see anything wrong there - do you? The sights were not loose , though the front sight bead is canted. I will correct that.

I’m going to touch up some of the blueing around the bolster and try some different sights - I have some Williams fiber optics on order. I’ll try it all again in a couple of weeks. I ordered some mink oil and un-lubed pillow ticking to try that as well as some 445 round balls, so maybe it will like one of those combinations

Maybe I have unrealistic expectations, but my other TC’s shoot so well that I was hoping for more.

I will figure this rifle out! Lol.

 

[Hunter1457]

The odds are that it's not the riffling. I would believe that since it is a kit rifle, there is something that does not fit correctly and is causing the barrel to shift when fired. I had this with a factory rifle and discovered that the snail was rubbing against the top of the lock causing the shift in impact. Another rifle had the tang resting on a screw head so the tang would be level with the stock. Check the barrel snail, bottom side of the full barrel, and top side of the lock for signs of rubbing, You might save a bunch of money. Also check the fit tween the hammer and nipple. Make sure the hammer isn't rubbing against the side of the nipple. Check that the barrel is fully seated in the stock. The hammer blow on the nipple can cause movement in the barrel. Another part to check is that the lock is functioning without rubbing against anything that would change the speed of the ignition. Best of luck,

Those are some good ideas. I’ll go back through the rifle and see what I can find.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Pre lubed patches will deteriorate over time. Ditch the pre lubed patches and get some 100% cotton patches that are 0.015 to 0.018 inch thick. This will be pillow ticking, cotton drill cloth, or mattress ticking. T/C shallow groove barrels benefit form a tight patch lubed just before loading. The patches can be square or roughly round. Hope you can get your rifle figured out.

 

[COTNTOP]

I have a TC 45 cal that does the same thing.

 

[deermanok]

I have a Traditions deerhunter rifle in 45 caliber that seemed to shoot all over the place.
I was using .440 round balls and used .010 and .015 cotton patches.
I recently tried some .445 round balls with .015 cotton patch over 80 grains of 3f black. The gun shoots way better now.

 

[Hunter1457]

The odds are that it's not the riffling. I would believe that since it is a kit rifle, there is something that does not fit correctly and is causing the barrel to shift when fired. I had this with a factory rifle and discovered that the snail was rubbing against the top of the lock causing the shift in impact. Another rifle had the tang resting on a screw head so the tang would be level with the stock. Check the barrel snail, bottom side of the full barrel, and top side of the lock for signs of rubbing, You might save a bunch of money. Also check the fit tween the hammer and nipple. Make sure the hammer isn't rubbing against the side of the nipple. Check that the barrel is fully seated in the stock. The hammer blow on the nipple can cause movement in the barrel. Another part to check is that the lock is functioning without rubbing against anything that would change the speed of the ignition. Best of luck,

I don’t see any rubs. The only thing thing I noticed is it looks like some wood is missing behind the lock plate. I did fix a small crack (when I got the rifle in the spring) under the tang by filling it with runny super glue and clamping it. The breach to tang fit looks flush and true. The tang is just under the surface of the wood - isn’t that where it’s supposed to be?

when the barrel wedge is put in (right to left if looking down the barrel, right?) it puts some pressure on the barrel and “pulls” it down into the barrel channel slightly. There is no play or up/down flex of the barrel in the channel - it is under tension. The wedge needs some pressure to pop it out but not a hammer or anything - it is not loose.

The hammer does not seem to be hitting anything in its travel.

See attached pictures- let me know if ya’ll see something that doesn’t look right

 

[brushblind]

What does the muzzle crown look like?

 

[Hunter1457]

What does the muzzle crown look like?