.454 vs .451 balls

[Atlast357]

Along with a myriad amount of conversation regarding percussion cap sizes,I find ball size is also a great topic.
So I shoot replica .44 calibers using .454 round balls that leave the nice little ring of lead denoting a good seal . Those little buggers sail out of the muzzle end just fine, spinning their merry way to an accurate position on target. :grin:
Haven't tried any .451 diameter balls yet, but am curious as to the
lesser effort that might be needed to seat the balls. :hmm:

 

[FishDFly]

Yep and less accuracy.

 

[Drago]

I think you should use the recommended size for each gun to prevent chain fires and damage to the loading rod.

 

[Wes/Tex]

As the other guys noted, unless you leave a small lead ring while loading you're setting yourself up for less accuracy or chainfire, without lubrication. If you can beg, borrow or steal a few .451" balls to test, you'll be able to see if they're sufficient to seal the chamber bore.

 

[AZbpBurner]

The larger the ball, the more of a lead ring is produced, which also forms a flat spot along the circumference of the ball. The larger the ball, the more force needed to seat (increased risk of stressing/breaking the loading lever and pivot screw), but the wider the flat band around the ball.

This flat is known as the engagement band, and serves as the surface area engaging with the barrel rifling. More bullet contact with the bore gives more bullet stability and leads to better precision. The ball passing thru the forcing cone also gains a little more width of the engagement band.

Practical considerations are using a ball big enough to completely seal the chamber, yet not so large that bullet seating effort ruptures hernias or aggravates hemorrhoids.

I cast .454" roundballs for use in all my Pietta Remingtons, and Uberti Colts. The .454" also work in my ROA, but a .456" ball performs noticeably better.

 

[Zonie]

I agree with you AZbpBurner.

And, for the nurds in the audience, here's some numbers.

With a .451 ball being reduced by the mouth of the cylinder to .449 diameter (Uberti 1860 Army)the width of that engagement band will be .042.

If a .454 diameter ball is used in the same chamber the width of the engagement band will be .067.

That's a 28 percent increase in the driving bands width.

 

[Atlast357]

Good explanation, so were do the .451 come into play ?

 

[dikman]

Hewy, the .451 is the recommended ball size, by Uberti, for the .44 Army. Mine came with .457 balls, which took a fair bit of effort to load, and left a very large flat band around the ball. The mouth of the chamber measures .447, further down it's .444, so .451 should be a nice fit without overstressing the loading lever.

 

[TFoley]

The larger the ball, the more of a lead ring is produced, which also forms a flat spot along the circumference of the ball. The larger the ball, the more force needed to seat (increased risk of stressing/breaking the loading lever and pivot screw), but the wider the flat band around the ball.

This flat is known as the engagement band, and serves as the surface area engaging with the barrel rifling. More bullet contact with the bore gives more bullet stability and leads to better precision. The ball passing thru the forcing cone also gains a little more width of the engagement band.

Practical considerations are using a ball big enough to completely seal the chamber, yet not so large that bullet seating effort ruptures hernias or aggravates hemorrhoids.

I cast .454" roundballs for use in all my Pietta Remingtons, and Uberti Colts. The .454" also work in my ROA, but a .456" ball performs noticeably better.

...and of course, the ball size recommended by Ruger, and in a mould made especially for the ROA shooters by Lee, is .457".

tac

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

.451 in balls are recommended for the Belgian Centaures (aka Centennial Armies) 'cause their groove and chamber size diameter is an identical .446 in.
Long Johns Wolf

 

[nkbj]

Found a Lyman .451 mold that casts .453.
It's the mold I use for Piettas unless something else works better.

 

[Billnpatti]

Well, as long as they shave an even lead ring, they will end up being the same size once inside the chamber. At least, that seems right to me. :idunno: I think that if there is any change in accuracy, it will be well within the normal wibbles and wobbles of off hand pistol shooting and will not be noticeable.

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

As long as chamber dia and barrel groove dia are the same you are OK in the accuracy department.
Long Johns Wolf

 

[glw]

My Pietta Remington New Army came with a bag of .451 balls. They shot fine but I didn't see much of a lead ring.

I went out today to buy some more and could only find .454 (Hornady brand). They rammed quite easily and shaved a nice lead ring.

They shot fine too.

 

[ZUG]

I have been cleaning and doing some measuring of the chambers and barrels of the following revolvers and here is what I came up with:
Pietta 1861 sheriff model.36 cal- cylinder chamber dia =.367 - barrel groove to groove =.371. Bore is .004" larger than cylinder chambers
Pietta 1858 model.36 cal- cylinder chamber dia =.367 - barrel groove to groove =.371. .004" larger than cylinder chambers.
Pietta 1851 model.36 cal- cylinder chamber dia =.366 - barrel groove to groove =.371. Bore is .005" larger than cylinder chambers.
Pietta 1860 model.44 cal- cylinder chamber dia =.445 - barrel groove to groove =.451. Bore is .006" larger than cylinder chambers.
Uberti 1861 model.36 cal- cylinder chamber dia =.372 - barrel groove to groove =.380. Bore is .008" larger than cylinder chambers.
Chambers measured with a small hole gauge and a digital caliper. All bores were slugged with lead slug and measured with the same digital caliper. These revolvers range in age from 1982 to 2013
As you can see the bore groove to groove dia. is larger than the cylinder chambers for ALL guns so no matter what you force into the cylinders the balls are undersized for the bore. I have a Navy Arms 1858 Remington .44 that was purchased in 1975 that I will be measuring in the future just to see the difference - I don't know who made it.

 

[nkbj]

1861 purchased in the early seventies has .375 chambers and groove diameter. From what I've seen later revolvers have chambers that are smaller than the groove.
Back then I used round noses cast from an altered Lee 9mm mold that was hogged out with a 3/8" drill bit. Hand rolled a bevel on the base between two pieces of formica, using the grained backside of the formica to grip the lead. Serious gong ringer for a muzzleloading match.
Excellent pistol by Navy Arms.

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

ZUG & campfire: when it comes to Italy made Colt or Remington clones your measurements are in line with our observations in a test we did in Winter 2011/12 on various C&B Revolvers of different makers. Most were .44 cal, however.
Incidentally, we found similar data for 2nd and 3rd gen Colts.
In a few specimens of our test the difference was so that you could (exaggerating mode on) almost hear the balls rattling down the bore (exaggerating mode off).
According to our data a few specimens of later production Spanish Santa Barbara made Remingtons NMAs have rifling groove dias very close to the chamber dias but almost 100 % of the Belgian made Centaures (Colt 1860 re-issues).
Long Johns Wolf

 

[SAJones]

Got a .457 mold for my ROA, then ended up using it for all my .44s. Don't have problems loading, & works well, shoots a lot better than I do.

 

[t.l.a.r. eng]

Rule of thumb for all cap-and-ball revolvers;

1.cyl bore size .001-.002 larger than barrel groove.

2. Ball size .006 larger than cylinder size.

Works every time. :thumbsup:

 

[cschibi]

From a newbee's perspective... I started out shooting the .451s. I couldn't get predictable shooting results until I started shooting the .454s.. my groups improved considerably with the same constant variables i.e. (powder type and loads with the cabaelas wool patches.).. for whatever it's worth...I am shooting the pietta 1858 New Army revolver..

Guys at the range were curious to how I was shooting tighter groups than their modern firearms... at 15 - 20 yards :wink: