4f for main charge in .36 cal

[JackAubrey]

Hello all.I have been around muzzle loading quite awhile so I'm not a newbie however this seems to be a question only a newbie might ask.Do you think it would be overly hazardous to use 4f powder as a main charge in a squirrel gun.I realize the finer the granulation the faster the burn rate and higher the pressures.In addition,a .36 calibre squirrel gun is more sensitive to pressure variations due to the limited space in the bore as opposed to say a .50 calibre.I was taught long ago that 4f was a priming powder,3f was for pistols and small bores up to about .40 calibre,2f for .45 cal. on up,and 2f or 1f for large bore muskets and such.However,it seems nothing is set in stone.I have seen guys fire 3f in a .58 calibre with no ill effects.I don't think 4f would be wise in anything larger than .36,what I mean is,I would not consider 80 grains of 4f in my Brown Bess,lol!What about in revolvers?A few months ago I would never have even contemplated this question.I have three pounds of 4f Goex just sitting around since I now prime with whatever I'm using for a main charge.Money being as tight as it is and the political climate darkening, I was wondering if I couldn't put this powder to good use squirrel hunting.Otherwise,I need to buy more 3f,and am having trouble finding it and this 4f is going to waste.Besides,I need the money to buy diapers for the baby.Just wondering what the consensus would be.I don't want to blow up a gun.Best regards,JA

 

[jtmattison]

I'd say with light charges you would be o.k.

I would stay around 75% of your regular 3F charge to be safe.

HD

 

[R.M.]

I wouldn't recommend it.
If money's that tight, consider trading some of that 4F for 3F. There should be somebody close to you that could use some priming powder.

 

[JackAubrey]

Thanks Hunting Dawg.The maximum charge I use in my squirrel rifle is 25 grains 3f and that's about what my revolvers use as well.

 

[jtmattison]

roundball did some shooting with 4F main charge. Here his old topic on the subject...

4F main charge

HD

 

[flintlockmdj]

DO NOT TAKE THIS AS A RECOMENDATION, but I was having trouble getting my 32 caliber CVA Squirrel rifle to zero in with 3f powder so I tried 15 grains of GOEX 4f and got improvement with no recoil, went to 20 grains and solved the problem.
Again I am not recommending this, this is just my findings.

 

[JackAubrey]

Good point R.M.

 

[roundball]

I think it is healthy for all of us to be cautious in areas like this, so asking for opinions on the subject is a good thing...better be safe than sorry, etc.

I too had heard the lore passed down that 4F should never be used for a main charge, but like many things handed down over the generations like that, they tend to get very over-simplified and absolute which almost automatically means they're probably false or over-exaggerated...I mean black powder is black powder...4F is not like switching to dynamite...but pressure spiking has to be considered just like when moving from 2F to 3F.

As one practical example of how over-simplied such a position is, on an occasional dry ball I spin the vent liner out, and using the plunger tip on my 3grn pan primer, I catch the tip of the dispenser on a thread down in the liner seat, and actuate it about 10 times...that's 30 grains of 4F right there...spin the liner back in and bloop the dry ball out...and the 30 grains is about like a squib load in a .45/.50/.54cal.

So yes, be conservative and be mindful of any indication of strange pressure changes but tiny charges of 4F like your talking about in your 36cal should be fine.

Note: Most 4F sucks moisture out of the air fast so if hunting in humid conditions with a Flintlock, a 4F main charge will probably become useless in 30-45 minutes and have to be removed/replaced...probably be OK in a sealed caplock environment.

 

[arquebus]

A friend of mine who shoots International Muzzleloading uses 4Fg in his C&B revolver & percussion pistol (both .44 caliber), & swears by it. Another guy I know was using very 'healthy' charges of 4Fg in his Pedersoli Mortimer .54 caliber RB rifle.....the flash coming back through the touch-hole was like a flame thrower, plus it didn't shoot particularly well either!!
I think in your application (.36 caliber) reducing your 3Fg loads by 10-15% & then working back up would be a sensible way to test your theory.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Jack: Unless you have a chronograph available to check those 4Fg loads, I would not use more than 10-15 grains in your .36. A chronograph will show a huge widening of your SDV when the chamber pressures climb enough to become irratic.

It would be better for you to trade the 4Fg powder to other flintlock shooters in Florida, for the desired 3Fg powder, than to try to use it as a main powder charge in that rifle.

I don't know where you live in Florida, but my brother shoots with a club near Tallahassee, and there are many NMLRA charter clubs in your state. I suspect there has to be one near to you. Contact the club officers and ask them to let members know you have some 4Fg powder you would like to trade for 3Fg powder.

If you go to the NMLRA website, you should be able to find the charter clubs for Florida.

If you can't, then send me a Pt with your town, and I can look up the closest club to you, and get you the name and phone number for a contact person, checking back issues of Muzzle Blasts.

 

[mazo kid]

I have no experience in using 4fg powder as a main charge....I have read that in larger charges the pressures are erratic and inconsistent. Perhaps as R.C. has said, the smaller charges in a pistol or small caliber rifle might be OK. Be aware that the 4fg powder does not have the graphite coating and so takes on moisture quite fast. Not a problem if you are at a range, but hunting is another matter. When I am hunting, I change out my prime every half hour or so as it gets "gooey" after that.

 

[Jim/OH]

I think I would do as a couple of others have suggested. I would find a flint shooter and trade him the 4f for some 3f. You will be better off in the long run.
My only experience with 4f as a main charge was at my local club a few months ago. A newbie was shooting a flintlock, but had not had much experience with it. Was shooting 3f (which shot and sounded fine) and unknowen to me, he ran out of 3f. I noticed his shots suddenly sounding very weak. And he was having all kinds of trouble, so after a few times of this, I went over to see if I could help him. Trying to figure out what was going on, I noticed a black dusting of powder on the ground beside his rifle. Found out he had ran out of 3f and decided to try to finish the matches with 4f, since he had plenty of it. After that I gave him some 3f to finish the day, and he had no more trouble. So my opinion is not to try to use it as a main charge.

Hope this helps, Jim/OH :hatsoff:

 

[bingo1952]

If the designator "g" comes after the last "F" it is graphite coated. Graphite only improves the flow properties of the powder and has nothing to do with its resistance to water. The fouling from a previous shot has more to do with prime getting soaked than any thing else. 1F will go soft if the pan isn't wiped on a humid/rainy day. As to 4Fg's use as a main charge I have never tried it but have often wondered how it would work in the little .31 caliber pocket revolvers. :hmm: I may have to give that a try. they'll only hold about 10 grains anyway.

 

[rawdog]

Paulvallandigham,

Why would you expect more standard deviation in muzzle velocities from 4F than from 3F?

Is it because of less tight control of grain size, ie, higher ratio of larger to smaller grain and subsequent un-mixing of powder in the can over time?

YHS,
rawdog

 

[roundball]

I would really like to hear this too.

Also:
Find out how much actual hands on experience has been involved in actually testing / shooting 4F as main charges;

In particular, be sure to get the actual hands on test results with 4F main charges in a .36cal.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Rawdog: My brother worked with Phil Quaglino to find some 4Fg loads for a .28 caliber rifle Phil made, and velocities increased dramatically with the use of 4Fg powder, with spikes in velocities. He was getting more than 2400 fps from that small pea, which is fine out to 50 yards, on a calm day. When they looked at the velocities over a chronograph, they were concerned that they got to that high velocity with such a small powder charge, and also that it didn't matter much for changing POI if you increased or decreased the powder charge by 5 grains. Of course, heavy loads really barked in that gun, and they became concerned about blowing the nipples on the gun.

I don't recall the SDV they got with their loads, or even if Pete told me what they were. He decided, and Phil agreed that they would be better off using 3Fg powder.

You raise a good point however. Most 4Fg powder is not screened to remove even finer granules. 4Fg is powder that falls through the 3Fg screens, and that can include all kinds of dust. To be fair in any testing, 4Fg powder should be screened to remove the "fines" so you get as consistent a reading on 4Fg pressures in these small caliber rifles.

Hodgdon says that a 60 mesh per inch screen is needed to sort out 4Fg powder from its "fines". To do justice to the idea that 4Fg might be used in small caliber rifles, it would be important to buy such screening and screen the 4Fg powder for the testing. Then the results will produce useful data.

The few times I have personally observed small loads of 4Fg powder being used in a rifle, the powder had not been screened. The last time I personally put 4Fg powder in a rifle, I pushed some priming powder behind a 62 caliber PRB stuck in a rifle. I doubt that I got more than 5 grains by weight/volume, behind the ball, but the gunowner fired the gun off a benchrest at a steel target at 25 yds, and the ball hit the target dead center. I was surprised at the power of such a small amount of priming powder to push a .600 cal. RB out of a rifle to not only travel 75 feet, but actually hit the 8 inch bangplate. So was the shooter. So were about 6 men standing around watching. Of course, the ball bounced off the steel target, and someone recovered it from the grass. It probably could have been loaded and fired a second time!

Those balls weigh about 325 grains. Compare that to the 60 grain balls in a .36 cal, or 40-45 grain pea for the .32 cal. guns.

Oh, I believe Phil settled on using 12 grains of 3Fg powder in that .28 cal. gun, and he still was getting more than 2,000 fps.

 

[bingo1952]

That must have been one of those hard wheel-weight balls we keep hearing so much about.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I think he was using #2 buchshot, which is made with Antimony, but measures about .27-.28" in diameter. Yeah, I am sure it was harder than pure lead. I don't know anyone who has the equipment to accurately measure pressure in a normal rifle barrel, outside a lab setting. However, all of us look for any sign of excess chamber pressure if we are loading fast burning powders. When they found wider variations in velocities with volume charges of 4Fg, and then found that as little as 1 or 2 grains of 4Fg powder, added to or subtracted from the standard charge being thrown did wild things with velocities, but didn't change the POI, they switched to 3Fg.

My brother has the Drum powder screen from Graf & Son, for 2Fg and 3Fg, but not for 4Fg. Since he only uses 4Fg as priming powder, there is NO reason to worry if "fines" are included in the 4Fg. However, if you are going to put it in the barrel, then I think its imperative that you screen out the fines. Otherwise you risk damaging the gun over extended use, for no good reason.
McMaster-Carr.com is a source of screen mesh, and you can get it in the right size mesh.

 

[rawdog]

Paul,

I posted on a site here http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=6429.0 where a fellow named William Kight (Dutch Bill) often posts. He has a lot of experience in the BP industry, very knowlegable on the subject, and has consulted for Goex and others.

At that link you can see that 4F is probably not going to have much grain size consistency unless a shooter re-sieves it himself. In addition, Bill adds further comments about graphite content and shooting dirty as compared to 3F, etc.

YHS,
rawdog

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree. when you get that small in your screens, you may get bits of dust of graphite, without much actual Black Powder in the "fines" that has to cause erratic charges and velocities if used. I do think that screening the 4Fg powder to remove the fines will result in at least some consistency of readings for velocity, and eliminate the cause of a lot of the spiking in velocities others have seen over their chronographs. A 60 mesh screen is really Very, Very small, so whatever passes through it will be even smaller. I know from personal experience using Unscreen 4Fg, or the fines that we do screen, that you get a much larger flash in the pan than you do with just 4Fg powder. Those large flashes can unnerve by-standers. :grin: :wink: