4F in a rifle or revolver

[rodwha]

You have made no such comment.

I certainly understand believing things we have been brought up to think. I've done this, as many others who read the modern gun magazines have.

The specific comment was the one that finally got my goat as it was extremely offensive to those ( the majority) who did just so. This obviously wasn't unsafe as there aren't accounts of the guns blowing up in the soldier's hands, and weren't used by a bunch of drunken hillbilly fools, which, to me, the comment implied.

I am not much of an historian, and have made poor assumptions such as these PRB's being such an inadequate projectile for hunting. But I try not to be demeaning.

I was really surprised that when shown the historical use of such that particular comment was still given.

Being blunt isn't necessarily a bad thing, and is usually better than beating around the bush or being "politically correct." Of course the manner given can make a difference.

You have nothing to apologize for sir.

 

[nkbj]

Interestingly, I've never experienced 4F getting wet in the pan unless the gun had already been fired. I've been out in rain, humidity and fog while hunting with nary a problem. But just fire the gun once and major problems. I once went to a rendezvous on a day that was extremely humid. I fired all targets on the trail walk and had no problems with the prime - I guess because there wasn't that much elapsed time between stations. Afterwards when I started cleaning my rifle, the bore was a soupy mess and liquid actually dripped out the muzzle. The pan was gloopy, too. but except for a fired gun the pan (4F) stayed dry until fired.

Nailed it. Combustion products make the difference... depending on what's going on where you live.

 

[Ranch 13]

I've had to wipe out the pan and the under side of the frizzen to keep the fouling from attracting moisture, but with a good "waterproof" pan and properly fit frizzen the prime getting wet wasn't ever much of a problem.
Trying to get the thing to go off in a 30 mph crosswind.. now that's a problem the wind would pick the priming charge up and about the time the sparks would get in to it, there'ld be a little fuzzle about eye level that wouldn't reach the touch hole.

 

[roundball]

I understand people don't like having their pet theories challenged and encourage you to continue believing what simulated tests you do in your garage are the final word on the subject...won't affect me in the least, LOL.

Then move out into the real world of year round hunting and put in some years of regularly punching game tags using Goex 4F in weather conditions so humid you can see the haze hanging in the air.
Then post up all the photos of those heads of game with descriptions of how Goex 4F fired off instantly each & every time after sitting out in those conditions for hours on end.

Not only do I look forward to seeing / hearing all those results, all experienced hunters everywhere will be glad to learn they no longer have to refresh their 4F prime any more either, the company that makes the 'rain coat' product to protect 4F can stop making it, and some hunters who switched from 4F to 3F for priming to avoid the 4F prime problems they were having in humid conditions can switch back for even faster ignition, etc, etc.

 

[M. De Land]

The point of the whole exercise was to discover why priming charges often fail and then focus on a remedy.
Obviously your years of experience have not produced the truth about powder vulnerability to moisture.
Fouling and spark generation from damp flints and or frizzens are generally the culprits not moisture absorption of clean powder.
The testing and simulation,separating the variables was necessary to find and isolate the most vulnerable problem areas to be addressed for better overall efficiency and performance.
If shooters believe powder readily absorbs moisture than they are inhibited by a faulty premise. Mike D.

 

[Dphar]

Gentlemen.
GOOD blackpowder will not absorb enough moisture from the AIR to cause it to be disfunctional. In fact quality powder than has been dampened so much as to be unusable but still granulated can be dryed on a sunny day since it will give up excess moisture to the air. Cheap powder will not do this is most cases and may be permanently damaged by humidity alone so far as use in firearms is concerned.
HOWEVER, for years "good blackpowder" was a relative term in the US since our only supplier was using CONTAMINATED saltpeter and CONTAMINATED water. The bad Potassium Nitrate (its invariably contaminated with SODIUM Nitrate unless pure) WILL make the powder moisture sensitive to the point it may be made useless by humidity alone. But they did not particularly care I guess so long as the Military would accept it.
As a friend wrote me who knew of such things and took the powder appart to check out the components "I guess they did not realize that "pure" Potassium Nitrate was not supposed to contain twigs and pebbles". This did not change until the company supplying them with the crap went under and they had to find a different supplier who apparently supplies the proper grade material.
Powder made with PURE Potassium nitrate will only absorb a given amount of water from the AIR. Then the powder will no longer accept anymore. This can be shown by drying samples, weighing them then exposing them to the air in a dry area with no artificial heat for 24-48 hours, weighing them at intervals. This was done in eastern PA where the humidity is high.
While its BALLISTICS may be somewhat effected from the extra moisture it will still light normally. However, liquid water WILL wet the powder. If the lock area is even slightly fouled with BP fouling even in some nook or cranny it will suck up humidity, liquify and then WET THE POWDER to some greater or lesser extent. This is why in high humidity (I grew up and shot MLs in Iowa) the fouling in the pan will actually liquify between shots while loading. So if you HUNT care must be take to NOT foul the gun, percussion or flint, in any manner. It needs to be completely clean of any fouling in the pan or around the vent.
The main problem is that most people think that modern powder is better than powder of the past. This is not the case except with the premium powders, though honestly changing suppliers and locations should have cured most of the domestic makers problems in this regard.
Chances are if the powder is turning the soup in the pan that either the powder is poor quality or the gun is not clean OR its been inadvertently exposed to liquid water.
If a CLEAN rifle is primed with Swiss Null B (finer than FFFF) and kept DRY, in a COVER. its should be reliable all day regardless of humidity level.
I would point out that powder horns and flasks are not air tight. If the powder will soak up enough water from the air to liquify it will do this in the horn or flask. This is shown by reports of people using some of the hygroscopic sugar powders finding the powder had liquified in their horns after a few weeks hanging on the wall.
Fog, BTW is liquid water not humidity.

Think about it. On a warship in the British Navy sailing for India or the Pacific. The magazine is at or below the waterline. If the powder goes bad due to humidity? Granulation will not prevent this if the saltpeter is contaminated.
This is why powder makers even centuries ago were near fanatical over the purity of the saltpeter (especially) and sulfur. About the tiniest detail of the charcoal, what it was made from, when was the wood cut and how it was burnt.
Powder for the military back in the day was not allowed to have any graphite added (makes poorly polished powder look good and increases fouling to some extent) and it was tested to make sure the ballistics equaled a set standard.
It was serious business for both the powder makers and the military. Victory or defeat could hinge on the powder.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

The point of the whole exercise was to discover why priming charges often fail and then focus on a remedy.
Obviously your years of experience have not produced the truth about powder vulnerability to moisture.
Fouling and spark generation from damp flints and or frizzens are generally the culprits not moisture absorption of clean powder.

Correct a wet frizzen and flint will not spark. I have a lock I can remove from the rifle, prime, cover the barrel side opening to the pan with my thumb, dip in water to wet the entire lock. The powder will stay dry but the lock will not spark due to water on the flint and frizzen face.
I was pretty surprised at this when I tried it. I was sure this lock would fire. But the water on the frizzen face puts out the spark.

Dan

 

[Ranch 13]

That's why the old dead guys had waxed leather or canvas lock covers, to use during rain/wet conditions to help insure the gun to go off if needed.
They didn't have the luxury of staying home and watching the football games on tv over the weekend if the weather was bad.
But like so many of the simple things it's been mostly lost to the modern day shooters. Haven't seen a Dixie catalog for a long time, do they still sell those lock covers?

 

[M. De Land]

I even noticed the difference in spark generation when I simply wiped the fouling off the flint face and frizzen with my thumb. That bit of oil from my skin mixed with some fouling immediately reduced the spark intensity from my lock.
In the testing the flint and frizzen were wiped clean before each test fire with a clean bit of paper towel which made a level playing field of good spark production. Mike D.

 

[Dphar]

That's why the old dead guys had waxed leather or canvas lock covers, to use during rain/wet conditions to help insure the gun to go off if needed.
They didn't have the luxury of staying home and watching the football games on tv over the weekend if the weather was bad.
But like so many of the simple things it's been mostly lost to the modern day shooters. Haven't seen a Dixie catalog for a long time, do they still sell those lock covers?

This works better and is just as easy to use if not easier. Also keeps water and snow off the sights and out of the bore. They have been in use since at least Rev-war times.

 

[cynthialee]

So....4F in guns as a main charge....

just sayin'

:yakyak:

 

[M. De Land]

My guess Dan is that the water is acting as a lubricant on the frizzen as well as fire retardant preventing the friction resistance needed against the flint edge to even produce a spark by metal shear and flint fracture.
I notice oil from my fingers will do the same thing. Mike D.

 

[Ranch 13]

Dan, yessir that would work well.

 

[azmntman]

ff

 

[rodwha]

Yep. It's historical too!