4F in a rifle or revolver

[Wes/Tex]

Guess I ought to weigh in with some babble. Back in the 60's we all tried out the fine grain powder thing. Cut back charges about 10 grains from the FFFg loads and went from there. Nothing blew up anywhere. In handguns it was OK but I never liked the fact it did't compress like larger grains. The slight compression of FFFg or FFg seemed to operate more efficently...personal observation. Worked well enough in the rilfe loads we were using then...again, not maximum, but still preferred the compresson on larger grains. Never figured a few fps less velocity was that big a deal. One really crazy knot-head was loading way over 100 grains in his .58 Hawken navy rifle under a big stake-cutter Minie ball. He thought it was heaven and may still be shooting it...haven't heard of him in years. Mat also have blown himself to kingdom come, too. What a dip-stick!!

Basically, FFFFg can be used, but use a bit of common sense and caution. I switched away from it because of my compression thing and the fact FFFg can be used for everything I'll do with black :thumbsup: powder!

 

[rodwha]

I'd be willing to use it in small caliber pistols and rifles, but I wouldn't use it in my .44 cal pistols as I see no need. 3F gives me more than satisfactory results (replicating a 45 Colt load). To me that's plenty as I'm not searching for grizzlies”¦ :wink:

 

[roundball]

Basically, FFFFg can be used, but use a bit of common sense and caution.

Exactly...we've discussed this in past years, and you might even recall the controlled 4F tests I ran / posted here back in 2006, to get first hand knowledge & experience...these are the test results and past posting:
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DISCLAIMER: ALL MANUFACTURER's POWDER RECOMMENDATIONS SHOULD BE FOLLOWED

PURPOSE OF THIS PARTICULAR POST:
>This is strictly an informational post;
>Its purpose is to share information that might be of interest;
>It is not posted as any recommendation;
>It is not being posted asking for agreement, approval, disapproval, or opinion;
>If it’s of no interest to you, ignore it;

================================================
Some results and findings from personal, controlled tests with 4F as main charge powder.

TESTING
Elephant 4F in .45/.50/.54cal T/C Flint barrels and a .58cal GM Flint barrel, using PRBs.

The patent breeches in those barrels hold about 20grns of powder and it’s common place to occasionally work 10-15grns of 4F in behind a dry-ball to bloop it out so I knew 10-15grns would be too little to even bother with and started with 20grns, proceeding very slowly.

I fired several 20, 30, 40, and 50grn 4F charges in all of them...had virtually no fouling, and extremely good accuracy at the 25yds I was testing.

20grns
I didn't even notice when I shot it...it was like when 4F is worked in under a dry ball to bloop it out, not usable for anything;

30grns
Again, no noticeable recoil, and now usable as a short range plinking charge;

40grns
Mild, "normal" recoil beginning to show, what you’d expect from a 50grn 3F target load, very usable;

50grns
Recoil was getting sharper as a sign of mounting pressure but it was not yet extreme or remarkable.

60grns
I tried one or two 60grn charges in the larger bore .58cal and decided that recoil was sharp enough in the .58cal to be conservative and not go any higher...and also knew it would be too high / sharp in the smaller bores for me to use at all.

MY PERSONAL FINDINGS & CONCLUSIONS
1) Based strictly on my personal, careful experiments, 30-40grn charges of 4F for main do work and of themselves presented no pressure / recoil out of the ordinary.

However, a CAUTION / POTENTIAL PROBLEM with 4F would be accidentally making a “double charge” of it, and all of a sudden you might have 80grns of 4F in there.

2) 4F is so fine, when you seat a PRB it'll blow the powder right out of the vent...I ended up having to plug mine with a pipe cleaner, and then just used gentle seating speed when I seated the balls.

I REMIND YOU OF THE DISCLAIMERS ABOVE.

For the record, I have no plans to use 4F as a main charge.
I simply had a leftover can of Elephant 4F which I decided to carefully use for first hand experiments with 4F as a main charge.

While the results were very clean burning and very accurate, IMO, findings #1 and #2 above make it impractical and potentially unsafe to routinely try and use it as a main charge.

 

[bubba15301]

anyone try 4f in a smallbore rifle,.32 or.36 cal?

 

[Patocazador]

I tried 4F in my Ruger Old Army. I used up to 35 gr. with a 255 gr. cast bullet. The more I used, the worse the groups. The front sight on an Old Army is too short and when using powerful loads, they hit even higher than usual.

There is no advantage to it. Save it for priming flintlocks.

 

[hanshi]

The fact that 4F can easily spill or blow out of the touch hole pretty much makes it use in rifles problematic. In revolvers and small pistols it might do okay.

 

[rodwha]

With the revolvers the nipples would need to have the smaller holes such as the ones like Tresso and ToTW, which, from the report I posted a portion from, stated are similar in size to original nipples on a Colt he had. The repros use nipples with larger holes that may ingest some of that 4F powder and cause MAJOR problems I'd think.

 

[David W.]

Try it at your own risk. it's your life, not mine. That's all I have to say.

anyone try 4f in a smallbore rifle,.32 or.36 cal?

 

[Ranch 13]

Has anyone tried using FFFFg as a primary powder in a small bore rifle, like a .32 or a revolver like an 1851 Navy or 1858 New Army? Would this be a safety issue? Robin

As late as the 10th printing of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook ( pre Fadala writings) they tested 4f in every revolver listed in the book including the 44's. The pressure data they give does not show anything to get worked up about, matter of fact some of the 4f loads are lower pressure.

 

[Billnpatti]

To the bests of my knowledge, no manufacturer recommends using as the main charge in any gun. While some folks may say it is okay, you do so at your own risk. I choose not to do it. I use all powders finer than 3f for charging my flintlock pan.

 

[Ranch 13]

Well actually all the revolvers with the exception of the Ruger, tested in the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook were their own brand..

 

[nkbj]

Has anyone tried using FFFFg as a primary powder in a small bore rifle, like a .32 or a revolver like an 1851 Navy or 1858 New Army? Would this be a safety issue? Robin

I haven't. It just never occurred to me. FFFg tries to fall through holes bad enough... so the paper cartridges makes some sense don't it! That way they got some more punch with those long pointy fightin' bullets.

 

[Billnpatti]

The Lyman Manual is a handy reference but, to the best of my knowledge, none of the gun manufacturers nor the powder manufacturers recommend the use of 4f as a main charge. It may work in small charges but I think I will stick to using nothing finer than 3f for my main charge. If you choose to use it, that is your business but please proceed with caution because I sure don't want to read of you being hurt by a bursting barrel or revolver chamber. :shake: :nono: :hatsoff:

 

[roundball]

And IMO, another negative against 4F for hunting, at least in a Flintlock, is that 4F gets easily affected by humidity and I'd worry that in humid conditions, before long a 4F main might not fire and I'd want to periodically refresh it.
But unlike simply brushing it out of a pan and refreshing it, the whole load would have to be pulled, bore wiped, reloaded, etc.

 

[Ranch 13]

The Lyman Manual is a handy reference but, to the best of my knowledge, none of the gun manufacturers nor the powder manufacturers recommend the use of 4f as a main charge. It may work in small charges but I think I will stick to using nothing finer than 3f for my main charge. If you choose to use it, that is your business but please proceed with caution because I sure don't want to read of you being hurt by a bursting barrel or revolver chamber. :shake: :nono: :hatsoff:

For as long as the first edition of the Lyman Blackpowder manual was around and the nearly dozen reprintings of it, have you ever heard of anyone blowing a gun using that data? Have you ever looked at one of those books and looked at the pressure data they provided ?
As Dan Phariss and others pointed out early on in this thread, the powder screening sizes we have today , really don't have much to do with what the old dead guys had to choose from. For the most part what we have today,is larger than what they used in the late 1800's. If you ever get a chance to look at a chart from Hazards powder company, you'll quick see that what we call 2 f today is a good bit closer to what they were using as a blasting/mining/cannon powder. The stuff the old dead guys had available to them would today give most internet experts a severe case of the vapors...

 

[rodwha]

When you look at the pistol cartridges from the CW period the charges were smaller as the conicals took up quite a bit of powder capacity. So it's not as though they were stuffing the chambers full and dropping a ball in. They were using no more than 20 something grains, and often less, which is what seemed necessary if you needed a heavy conical for shooting horses. One of those conicals barely trotting along with 38 Spl power levels just wouldn't do much and wouldn't have been used.

 

[matt denison]

...FFFFg as a primary powder in a small bore rifle....

Bud of mine in his early 70's is a life-time flinter, following on the heels of his dad and granddad who were also devoted. Lotta history going back a long, long ways into the Tennessee hills.

He insists on using 4f in his 32 and 36 cal rifles, saying his family has always done it and always will. Charges area adjusted down accordingly from what I use with 3f, but still kinda makes my skin crawl.

There will always be people like that. You ask them "why do you do that?" and they answer "because it is so accurate." This of course is :bull: they just don't know it. A one hole group shot with a safe load of 3F is no less accurate than one shot with a hold my beer and watch this load of 4F.

 

[bubba15301]

gonna try about 15 gr 4f in my .32 caplock

 

[cynthialee]

gonna try about 15 gr 4f in my .32 caplock

well from reading this thread I'd say that sounds about right, but the flash hole on your nipple is gonna pay for it if you shoot a lot of rounds

 

[rodwha]

"...hold my beer and watch this load of 4F."

So what you are saying is that those who fought during the CW using the cartridges given them were all just the "hold my beer and watch this" type of people? That seems a very silly comment to me.