Is there a reason why I shouldn't use 4F powder in the pan of my flintlock? While hunting, over a period of a couple of days, how do I go about keeping the load in the barrel dry? I have found that the load might get damp by way of the vent hole.
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4F in the Pan and keeping powder dry
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kevthebassman
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I hear that the 4F isn't coated with graphite like the 3F is. I've used both 3F and 4F to prime with, and I have noticed that the 4F collects moisture during the humid Missouri summers. If there's a difference in speed between 3F and 4F prime, I haven't been able to notice it.
As to keeping your main charge dry, I haven't had a problem keeping it dry in the winter when the air is dry. I haven't left it loaded in the humid summertime though. The big thing I think is never to bring a cold gun into warm air, once it's loaded leave it out in the truck or garage to avoid condensation.
I left mine loaded for 3 days on opening weekend. I loaded it on day one, and it drizzled and sleeted on the first day, my charge went off instantly when I touched it off at the end of day 3, like I had just loaded it.
As to keeping your main charge dry, I haven't had a problem keeping it dry in the winter when the air is dry. I haven't left it loaded in the humid summertime though. The big thing I think is never to bring a cold gun into warm air, once it's loaded leave it out in the truck or garage to avoid condensation.
I left mine loaded for 3 days on opening weekend. I loaded it on day one, and it drizzled and sleeted on the first day, my charge went off instantly when I touched it off at the end of day 3, like I had just loaded it.
paulvallandigham
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The easiest way to keep the powder dry in the barrel is to use a piece of Plastic wrap, placed UNDER your PRB when you load it at the muzzle. Trim the plastic off after you seat the ball with the short starter, so it becomes a seal against moisture from the muzzle of the gun.
The, you need to plug the vent hole to keep moisture from entering there. When the pan is primed, you can use patch lube to build a "dam " around the frizzen and pan, to keep moisture OUT. When the pan is empty, use a cleaning patch folded in half, with one half on top of the pan, w/o powder, of course, held in place by lowering the frizzen, and the other half standing against the barrel and covering the vent. Now dampen that patch with rubbing alcohol, or any other alcohol, so that as the alco hol evaporates, it sucks moisture that might get into the vent to your powder charge OUT of the vent with the evaporating alcohol. Over night, Store the gun outside- don't take it inside where condensation will affect your BP charge-- and cover the entire frizzen and flash hole with a sheet of plastic wrap to keep out moisture. You can renew the alcohol in the cleaning patch to leave it under the plastic wrap over night, and that will insure that the powder is dry in the morning.
There are other ways to keep your gun free of moisture. I have rarely used them, except in the field when I am hunting in rain, mist, fog, or combinations of all three. When I was hunting wild boar on a misty, Hot day in Tennessee many years ago, I could not keep the FFFFg priming powder dry, so I put a toothpick in my touchhole, and emptied the pan. I kept the lock under my poncho, and under my arm, to keep rain off it. When I hear the boars coming my way- they make a lot more noise than do deer-- I removed the toothpick, and primed the gun with fresh powder to take the shot.
At the end of the day, I shoot out the load, and clean the gun barrel, before storing it. The banging of car doors, and other mechanical sounds made at your truck or car- including the starting of your engine, telegraph to the deer that someone is parked in their backyard, so firing a shot is not going to disturb them. In fact, rather than disturbing deer, more often than not, firing a shot will bring deer towards you out of curiousity.
Others use a CO2 device to blow the load out of their barrel. Check Track of the Wolf and other suppliers for the device, if interested.
The, you need to plug the vent hole to keep moisture from entering there. When the pan is primed, you can use patch lube to build a "dam " around the frizzen and pan, to keep moisture OUT. When the pan is empty, use a cleaning patch folded in half, with one half on top of the pan, w/o powder, of course, held in place by lowering the frizzen, and the other half standing against the barrel and covering the vent. Now dampen that patch with rubbing alcohol, or any other alcohol, so that as the alco hol evaporates, it sucks moisture that might get into the vent to your powder charge OUT of the vent with the evaporating alcohol. Over night, Store the gun outside- don't take it inside where condensation will affect your BP charge-- and cover the entire frizzen and flash hole with a sheet of plastic wrap to keep out moisture. You can renew the alcohol in the cleaning patch to leave it under the plastic wrap over night, and that will insure that the powder is dry in the morning.
There are other ways to keep your gun free of moisture. I have rarely used them, except in the field when I am hunting in rain, mist, fog, or combinations of all three. When I was hunting wild boar on a misty, Hot day in Tennessee many years ago, I could not keep the FFFFg priming powder dry, so I put a toothpick in my touchhole, and emptied the pan. I kept the lock under my poncho, and under my arm, to keep rain off it. When I hear the boars coming my way- they make a lot more noise than do deer-- I removed the toothpick, and primed the gun with fresh powder to take the shot.
At the end of the day, I shoot out the load, and clean the gun barrel, before storing it. The banging of car doors, and other mechanical sounds made at your truck or car- including the starting of your engine, telegraph to the deer that someone is parked in their backyard, so firing a shot is not going to disturb them. In fact, rather than disturbing deer, more often than not, firing a shot will bring deer towards you out of curiousity.
Others use a CO2 device to blow the load out of their barrel. Check Track of the Wolf and other suppliers for the device, if interested.
logan said:
4F powder will draw moisture from the air faster than 2F and 3F, but you can use it with great confidence, changing the prime every 1/2 hour during a hunt in damp conditions will insure fresh, dry priming powder. A cow's knee (flap of treated leather) to cover the lock will also help keep your powder dry.
If you are going to leave the gun loaded over night, dump the prime and plug the flash hole with a tooth pick or a small feather's quill. This will help protect the main charge from moisture.
Well, many here will say that you should use 4F in your pan. Their line of reasoning is that it is "faster" than 3Fg in the pan and tests seem to bear this out. How much faster? It seems to be a few thousandths of a second.
On the negative side of this question many others will point out that 4f powder will "turn to soup in the pan".
I ran my own test on this "soup" question and it turns out that under some conditions the accusation is right.
If you are interested in my "soup" tests follow this link.
THE 4F SOUP TEST
If you don't want to follow the link, the bottom line is that YES, if the pan contains fouling the fouling will attract moisture from the air and that moisture will contaminate the 4F powder making it unusable as a prime.
In a clean pan (with no fouling whatsoever) the moisture will not collect in the pan and the 4F will remain good.
As to the question about going several days without shooting a flintlock there have been several posts about this question.
Most of them seem to end up saying that if you dump the pans prime and plug the vent hole with a suitable plug (stick, feather, tight fitting tapered metal pin etc.) the main charge in the barrel will remain good.
Repriming in the morning will get you back in hunting condition.
This assumes the patched ball is a tight fit and does not use a watery lube that will contaminate the powder after several hours have passed.
IMO, anyone who is thinking of leaving their flintlock loaded overnight should treat it like it was fully loaded at all times, even with the "vent hole plugged".
The reason is that if the plug should fall out for any reason and if one tiny little spark gets into that open hole the gun will fire.
Also, if it is cold outside do not bring the cold gun into a warm place like a tent.
Condensation will form on all of the metal parts and it may work its way into the vent or thru the patch in the barrel. If it contaminates the main charge, all bets are off and the gun will likely misfire.
On the negative side of this question many others will point out that 4f powder will "turn to soup in the pan".
I ran my own test on this "soup" question and it turns out that under some conditions the accusation is right.
If you are interested in my "soup" tests follow this link.
THE 4F SOUP TEST
If you don't want to follow the link, the bottom line is that YES, if the pan contains fouling the fouling will attract moisture from the air and that moisture will contaminate the 4F powder making it unusable as a prime.
In a clean pan (with no fouling whatsoever) the moisture will not collect in the pan and the 4F will remain good.
As to the question about going several days without shooting a flintlock there have been several posts about this question.
Most of them seem to end up saying that if you dump the pans prime and plug the vent hole with a suitable plug (stick, feather, tight fitting tapered metal pin etc.) the main charge in the barrel will remain good.
Repriming in the morning will get you back in hunting condition.
This assumes the patched ball is a tight fit and does not use a watery lube that will contaminate the powder after several hours have passed.
IMO, anyone who is thinking of leaving their flintlock loaded overnight should treat it like it was fully loaded at all times, even with the "vent hole plugged".
The reason is that if the plug should fall out for any reason and if one tiny little spark gets into that open hole the gun will fire.
Also, if it is cold outside do not bring the cold gun into a warm place like a tent.
Condensation will form on all of the metal parts and it may work its way into the vent or thru the patch in the barrel. If it contaminates the main charge, all bets are off and the gun will likely misfire.
paulvallandigham
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Jim makes two good points. I use a " hammerstall" a leather hood, that fits over the frizzen and acts as a " Safety", by preventing the flint from hitting the frizzen " accidentally". I consider it a major safety piece of equipment that all flintlocks can use, and that any flintlock that is going to be kept loaded outside your immediate control should have as a matter of course.
Some people tape their barrels, and the vent hole, also to keep out moisture. I have taped the muzzle, using masking, electricians, and plastic tape, and the only reservation is when it is below zero- then the tape's glue seems to solidify and the tape comes off the barrel. That is no way to have the tape protect your barrel from snow, but tape works above 32 degrees for most applications.
I should have said something earlier about keeping the pan dry. POLISH the pan to a mirror finish. That makes it much more difficult for powder residue to cling to the metal, and makes cleaning the residue off the metal of the pan, and surrounding areas a matter of one pass with a dry cleaning patch.
Finally, only because it did happen to me, always check the UNDERSIDE of your flint, and jaws of your flintlock for condensation and moisture when out in rainy, mist, or fog, or any combination of those conditions. My first shot at a wild boar resulted in my first misfire, and you could clearly see the line or water on my frizzen where the moisture on the bottom of the flint had been flung forward JUST IN TIME to snuff out the sparks the flint had cut. I wipe the frizzen, closed it, and then wiped off the bottom of my flint, before shouldering the gun again for a second attempt. The gun fired that time.
I was changing the FFFFg priming powder every 10-15 minutes on that hunt. I have since tested FFFg powder for priming my guns and have decided that while I know the FFFg burns slower, the difference is in thousandths of a second, and more a "feeling" of delay than an actually heard delay to my ears. I know I am not moving the gun in that small amount of time, so any delay is not affecting my shooting accuracy.
So, in bad weather hunting conditions, I will be using FFFg powder for priming my flintlocks. The 4Fg priming powder will be used in target shooting contests at the club. Only on a very clear, dry sunny day will I venture to use FFFFg powder for my prime when hunting. I have used both sizes of powder granules in test shooting at the range, and can't find any significant changes in group sizes.
Some people tape their barrels, and the vent hole, also to keep out moisture. I have taped the muzzle, using masking, electricians, and plastic tape, and the only reservation is when it is below zero- then the tape's glue seems to solidify and the tape comes off the barrel. That is no way to have the tape protect your barrel from snow, but tape works above 32 degrees for most applications.
I should have said something earlier about keeping the pan dry. POLISH the pan to a mirror finish. That makes it much more difficult for powder residue to cling to the metal, and makes cleaning the residue off the metal of the pan, and surrounding areas a matter of one pass with a dry cleaning patch.
Finally, only because it did happen to me, always check the UNDERSIDE of your flint, and jaws of your flintlock for condensation and moisture when out in rainy, mist, or fog, or any combination of those conditions. My first shot at a wild boar resulted in my first misfire, and you could clearly see the line or water on my frizzen where the moisture on the bottom of the flint had been flung forward JUST IN TIME to snuff out the sparks the flint had cut. I wipe the frizzen, closed it, and then wiped off the bottom of my flint, before shouldering the gun again for a second attempt. The gun fired that time.
I was changing the FFFFg priming powder every 10-15 minutes on that hunt. I have since tested FFFg powder for priming my guns and have decided that while I know the FFFg burns slower, the difference is in thousandths of a second, and more a "feeling" of delay than an actually heard delay to my ears. I know I am not moving the gun in that small amount of time, so any delay is not affecting my shooting accuracy.
So, in bad weather hunting conditions, I will be using FFFg powder for priming my flintlocks. The 4Fg priming powder will be used in target shooting contests at the club. Only on a very clear, dry sunny day will I venture to use FFFFg powder for my prime when hunting. I have used both sizes of powder granules in test shooting at the range, and can't find any significant changes in group sizes.
All I ever used for prime is Goex 4F...killed a buck just week before last in the rain. I've learned to keep the muzzle down and the lock area up under my coat...then just refresh the prime often depending on the weather conditions...just periodially tip the frizszen open and gently rock the flintlock back and forth.
1) If conditions are dry / low humidity the 4F prime will be dry and slide back and forth in the pan easily...if so, nothing needs to be done;
2) If conditions are wet / high humidity, the 4F prime will start to 'cake', develop some 'body', and not slide back and forth well...I'll find that I have to tip the rifle over further and further before it'll start to slide;
In these wet conditions, I dump out the prime, brush out the pan & vent face, and refresh the prime as often as every 30 minutes to PREVENT it from caking/sticking up...only takes 30 seconds and costs less than a penny.
1) If conditions are dry / low humidity the 4F prime will be dry and slide back and forth in the pan easily...if so, nothing needs to be done;
2) If conditions are wet / high humidity, the 4F prime will start to 'cake', develop some 'body', and not slide back and forth well...I'll find that I have to tip the rifle over further and further before it'll start to slide;
In these wet conditions, I dump out the prime, brush out the pan & vent face, and refresh the prime as often as every 30 minutes to PREVENT it from caking/sticking up...only takes 30 seconds and costs less than a penny.
"In these wet conditions, I dump out the prime, brush out the pan & vent face, and refresh the prime as often as every 30 minutes to PREVENT it from caking/sticking up...only takes 30 seconds and costs less than a penny'
That is how I did things untill I went to the single horn method, both guns have large locks throw a ton of sparks and have 5/64 vents, can't say one way is better than the other, with smaller locks the 4f might be noticably faster I can't tell the difference on the big ones.
That is how I did things untill I went to the single horn method, both guns have large locks throw a ton of sparks and have 5/64 vents, can't say one way is better than the other, with smaller locks the 4f might be noticably faster I can't tell the difference on the big ones.
Len Graves
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OK here goes. There are as many opinions about what powder and how to keep it dry as there are shooters. Here is mine. ffffg is glazed powder, that is, it has graphite added. it will be a little more hydroscopic than the coarser powders. To keep my pan dry I use a cows knee, and little dams of wax on the barrel/wood seam to let rain run off before getting into the pan. Check the pan regularly. for a vent pick I use a Blue Jay feather or other similar sized bird feather, a wooden tooth pick can swell and stick or break off in the vent. Porkypine quills work good too.
If necessary change powder in the pan often. There, one more opinion for you. You sort em out. Good luck and keep your powder dry.
If necessary change powder in the pan often. There, one more opinion for you. You sort em out. Good luck and keep your powder dry.
And no arguement out of me...just responding with how I happen to do it...since it works for me I don't have any driving issue or need to start tinkering and making changes to what already works...I carry a little pocket pan primer in a shirt pocket and it makes refreshing the prime a simple, few second operation...tg said:
I have tried the porckupine quills the only problem is that when I pull them out the blood runs out of my thumb... I liked the single horn method mainly due to the fact that it replicated the experience that the originals users would have had, same reason for a plain touch hole with out a super duper liner, to me it adds to the enjoyment if I can get as close to the origional methods as possible/practical
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I use 4F as a prime simply because I have a lot of it. Otherwise I would use the same as the main charge. I wipe the pan with alcohol at the beginning of the day and charge the pan when ready to hit the woods - I use a cowskneed too. Every hour or so - I dump the prim and reprime. Never had a misfire yet.
I charge and prime from a single horn (3f)when hunting. In snow or drizzle, I keep the lock up tight against my right armpit when moving and under my poncho when sitting tight. I also check my priming frequently. This post is the first time I have heard of using a porcupine quill as a touch hole plug. I prefer a quill from a bluejay or wild canary. At any rate, if I'm hunting all day in the wet, I always discharge my rifle at the end of the day, clean, and reload for the next day.
So if I'm out working in my yard, or out hiking, camping, hunting, etc, and come across a BJ feather on the ground I'm breaking some law if I pick it up and have it in my possession??
Sounds lilke the PA legislature has too much time on their hands...
Sounds lilke the PA legislature has too much time on their hands...
-----thats what I heard--saw a big hawk feather in my yard this summer--if I keep it I'm breaking the law so I just mowed over it not breaking the law---makes scense to me-----definately don't pick up an EAGLE feather--stupid laws-----
paulvallandigham
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This is one of those " Interpretations" of laws that I fight the officers on all the time. I am not afraid to take such a "ticket" to court, and demand a jury trial. Most people have common sense enough to know that possessing a blue jay feather, or any other song bird feather is not Impacting the Blue Jay population, and convicting you of such a " violation " is not going to protect songbirds from your family cat! Sometimes, I find Prosecutors who also have common sense, and won't pursue such tickets, but that can be rare, sometimes.
DO NOT EVER HAVE JUST A BENCH TRIAL( no jury- just that judge deciding your guilt or innocence) on these kind of charges. Judges are duty bound to apply the LAW as it is written, and unless the law is ambiguous, they will find you guilty as charged! They may not want to, but they will.
Asking for a jury trial is the fastest way I have found to find the case dismissed by the prosecutor, who finds he has to draft up Jury Instructions on the elements of the offense, and that takes time he can better use doing other things.
Since the money paid on game code offenses usually goes to the state, and not to the local county, who pays the prosecutor, he is not inclined to be a money maker when it doesn't put money in his own pocket. It also can cost him lots of votes to nitpic voters over laws such as these.
DO NOT EVER HAVE JUST A BENCH TRIAL( no jury- just that judge deciding your guilt or innocence) on these kind of charges. Judges are duty bound to apply the LAW as it is written, and unless the law is ambiguous, they will find you guilty as charged! They may not want to, but they will.
Asking for a jury trial is the fastest way I have found to find the case dismissed by the prosecutor, who finds he has to draft up Jury Instructions on the elements of the offense, and that takes time he can better use doing other things.
Since the money paid on game code offenses usually goes to the state, and not to the local county, who pays the prosecutor, he is not inclined to be a money maker when it doesn't put money in his own pocket. It also can cost him lots of votes to nitpic voters over laws such as these.
Someone else told me that a while back. I tried to verify it on the internet, but, was unable to do so. We've got tons of bluejays around here. I don't harm the birds to get these, they are thoughtful enough to leave a regular supply around the feeders. Hmmm, maybe some RIT dye is in order.
Better be careful with the Rit dye.
If you use red dye on a blue jay feather they may charge you with endangering the "Purple Jay", a bird so rare that no one has even seen one or heard of it!
Just funnin' :rotf:
If you use red dye on a blue jay feather they may charge you with endangering the "Purple Jay", a bird so rare that no one has even seen one or heard of it!
Just funnin' :rotf:
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