4F powder

[Rifleman1776]

Can you please explain corning? I'm very curious.

Wild, I'm no expert on the subject. You may be able to find some youtube that shows the process. But, as I understand it, corning is the forcing of the wet bp mush through fine screening to make the grain size desired. The word 'corn' is both a verb and noun. It is also historically a sorta generic term for grains in general.

 

[Stantheman86]

I'm guessing that any formal use of "priming powder" would have developed when formal target shooting with flint locks came on the scene, in the old heavy barrel stump guns or English or European flintlock pistol and rifle matches.

Military use dictated pouring some from the paper cartridge into the pan then using the rest to pour down the bore.

Highly, highly doubt early settlers, militiamen etc were using priming powder.

Now, I live in PA where for (ever?) There has only been Flintlocks allowed for muzzle loader season until the recent addition of inline season.

Several "frugal" old heads who only fire at deer and probably have the same pound of metal tin Goex 2f from 1995, say they take a little 2f and crush it up with two metal spoons , and pour that crushed up homebrew "priming powder" into whatever rigged up receptacle they use to get enough to prime a few pans worth, to carry into the hunting field. I'm thinking this isn't a new concept.

 

[Tobee]

Piqued my curiosity. Crumbled Goex 3F and some unknown powder given to me to make dust. Tested against a pinch of regular 3F. Used a charcoal lighter for ignition. Regular 3F and dust 3F took about the same time to ignite but flashed fast and the same speed according to my eyeballs. The unknown dust ignited faster but seemed to burn slightly slower than Goex 3F and less cleaner.

 

[Carbon 6]

On to the next test then.

 

[Bo T]

It's a "Red Herring" to go down that path. It wasn't my intention for you to look at it like that. I'ts only one piece of the puzzle.

True, but poor analogies are like poor directions. For modern powders, grinding would reduce the glaze, rendering the powder more incline to pick up moisture. It seems that grinding to dust would slow the powder burn down (in the pan) and the lightness would make it more likely to get blown around during combustion-rendering it less effective. If 1f or 2f was ground down to the size of 4f it would probably double the burn rate (relative to the 1f and 2f) and make a useful powder for priming the pan.

 

[Carbon 6]

True, but poor analogies are like poor directions. For modern powders, grinding would reduce the glaze, rendering the powder more incline to pick up moisture. It seems that grinding to dust would slow the powder burn down (in the pan) and the lightness would make it more likely to get blown around during combustion-rendering it less effective. If 1f or 2f was ground down to the size of 4f it would probably double the burn rate (relative to the 1f and 2f) and make a useful powder for priming the pan.

The problem is trying to balance between the two extremes and the negatives and positives.
You got some of it but there is more. A limited test may produce acceptable results but when you try to implement it full scale, the faults become more clear.

 

[Bo T]

The problem is trying to balance between the two extremes and the negatives and positives.
You got some of it but there is more. A limited test may produce acceptable results but when you try to implement it full scale, the faults become more clear.

Any model is limited in scope. The ability to successfully use the model indicates an understanding of the model.

 

[George]

I'm guessing that any formal use of "priming powder" would have developed when formal target shooting with flint locks came on the scene, in the old heavy barrel stump guns or English or European flintlock pistol and rifle matches.

A little earlier than that, I think. Check out the 10th/last bold item in this link to an old thread that begins Have vent picks attached to your straps...

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/early-gun-management.106856/#post-1429750

Notice he discusses both corned-pouder and tuch-pouder.

Then scroll on down to an illustration of such a soldier with both main and priming flasks.

Spence

 

[Stantheman86]

That's pretty fascinating , do matchlocks maybe need a "touch powder" but flintlocks later didn't?

The early Arquebusiers also used little clay or glass bottles to hold pre measured powder charges, so carrying paper cartridges or modern "charge tubes" isnt a new concept.

 

[Carbon 6]

The early Arquebusiers also used little clay or glass bottles to hold pre measured powder charges, so carrying paper cartridges or modern "charge tubes" isnt a new concept.

Apostles.

 

[45man]

Does not matter as long as the spark ignites the powder. FFFFG lights faster is all. BP has a coating of carbon that prevents static from igniting it. Course grains have thicker so might not flash as quick. You will have more delay with course powders.
Flinters have a problem with the flash hole position. Some guys fill the pan over the hole so powder has to burn down to the hole to ignite the charge. You made a fuse. This is a case of less is better.

 

[FishDFly]

Does not matter as long as the spark ignites the powder. FFFFG lights faster is all. BP has a coating of carbon that prevents static from igniting it. Course grains have thicker so might not flash as quick. You will have more delay with course powders.
Flinters have a problem with the flash hole position. Some guys fill the pan over the hole so powder has to burn down to the hole to ignite the charge. You made a fuse. This is a case of less is better.

Couple of questions:

1. Black powder has a coating on it to prevent it from absorbing moisture. Not sure what the
chemical makeup is. "Static electricity does not ignite black powder", this is a proven fact. If
static electricity were to ignite black powder, what would be the proper preventing coating?
Doubt it would be carbon, as carbon burns.

2. If some guys fill the pan over the hole so powder has to burn down to the hole to ignite the
charge, why do folks bank away from the touch hole which there has been much discussion
on how to prime a pan?

3. How does filling over the touch hole create a fuse?

Thanks

fdf

 

[Britsmoothy]

Does not matter as long as the spark ignites the powder. FFFFG lights faster is all. BP has a coating of carbon that prevents static from igniting it. Course grains have thicker so might not flash as quick. You will have more delay with course powders.
Flinters have a problem with the flash hole position. Some guys fill the pan over the hole so powder has to burn down to the hole to ignite the charge. You made a fuse. This is a case of less is better.

Eerrr, carbon conducts electricity.
Do some more studying bro.

 

[FishDFly]

Eerrr, carbon conducts electricity.
Do some more studying bro.

Read about static and read about static from BP, company seems to be your part of the world.

 

[Britsmoothy]

The element carbon is Omni present in all black powder.
By its very nature it prevents an isolated hot spot of static charge to accumulate.

It won't however prevent an electrical discharge, natural or otherwise from igniting it.

 

[Zonie]

For static electricity to produce heat, there must be a resistance to it freely passing thru a material.

Carbon and graphite which is a form of carbon both conduct electricity quite nicely without providing any significant electrical resistance.

Given a choice, electricity will always pass around the outside surface of a conductor or in our case, a granule of black powder.

So, if a high voltage charge of electricity hits a pile of black powder it will freely pass thru the outside layer of charcoal or graphite from granule to granule without producing any heat to ignite the powder. That is why static electricity will not cause the black powder to explode.

As for the graphite, it is not added to the black powder to protect it from moisture or humidity.
According to Bill Knight, (Mad Monk), the graphite is added to the corned black powder to facilitate screening it.

Also the "g" used with in the Fg, FFg, FFFg, or FFFFg indicates the powder has been "glazed".
"Glazing" is the process of tumbling the powder to knock off the small sharp corners left from the corning process. It leaves the granules much smoother so it will pour easily thru the packing machines and thru your black powder horn or flask.

 

[Britsmoothy]

For static electricity to produce heat, there must be a resistance to it freely passing thru a material.

Carbon and graphite which is a form of carbon both conduct electricity quite nicely without providing any significant electrical resistance.

Given a choice, electricity will always pass around the outside surface of a conductor or in our case, a granule of black powder.

So, if a high voltage charge of electricity hits a pile of black powder it will freely pass thru the outside layer of charcoal or graphite from granule to granule without producing any heat to ignite the powder. That is why static electricity will not cause the black powder to explode.

As for the graphite, it is not added to the black powder to protect it from moisture or humidity.
According to Bill Knight, (Mad Monk), the graphite is added to the corned black powder to facilitate screening it.

Also the "g" used with in the Fg, FFg, FFFg, or FFFFg indicates the powder has been "glazed".
"Glazing" is the process of tumbling the powder to knock off the small sharp corners left from the corning process. It leaves the granules much smoother so it will pour easily thru the packing machines and thru your black powder horn or flask.

Enough voltage, enough current and it will ignite. Any forming of a plasma and you have a heat source.
If lightening has enough instant heat to vaporise the water content of a tree and cause it to explode......

 

[Black Hand]

Doubt it would be carbon, as carbon burns.

Graphite and Diamonds are both carbon in different forms - neither really burns....

 

[Rat]

That damping is damping and frustrating on a humid or wet weather day and is the reason I won’t ever use 4F as priming ever again. It 3F or 2F or no shooting for me!!!

Try this sometime, take your lock out, and completely de-oil it. Carb cleaner may work good. Make sure lock is completely dry. Very sparingly grease the contact points of the moving parts. Then try 4f in your pan again and see what happens. You can use oil if you do it extremely carefully, using just tiny, micro-drops, and only where you actually need it. But, I'd suggest just using grease, applied with a tooth pick for the experiment.

 

[Rat]

Maybe different people, preferred different grades of powder, same as today? And had the same discussions! Maybe some like fine powder for their pistols.

I have an original long rifle that was made back in that time period. I also have the horn, and the powder measure for the main charge, which is a hollowed out antler tip. Even though the rifle is of small caliber (.40") the measure holds a VERY small charge. Something less than 30 grains. This rifle wasn't just used to shoot squirrels, it was used extensively in some of the Oregon "Indian wars". So, I wonder if super fine powder might not be preferred in a small caliber rifle, maybe to get more shots out of a pound of powder? I am asking, not saying, as that rifle was often so far out in the wild country, that re-supply would have been a problem. This rifle also has a Sublett and Meeks connection.