.50 cal pattern

[bdarin]

Ok, here we go again....shooting a .50 cal Hawken percussion rifle, 80gr (by volume) Pyrodex, patched balls, 100 yds. Aiming at the same 3" spot, shooting offhand, I put 26 shots all within a 24" dia. circle. Does this suck, or is this normal for a round ball at 100 yds? I tried a few shots with those "pseudo-sabots" (the ones with the plastic part attached to the back of the copper jacketed conical slug, can't remember the real name) and got a better grouping. I expected this from a pointy bullet, but I hate using them: the more you shoot, the harder they are to put in the barrel. Plus they cost too much compared to balls. Is this normal? Or am I expecting too much out of a colonial era weapon? Waddaya think? :: :hmm:

 

[musketman]

I put 26 shots all within a 24" dia. circle. Does this suck

You should be able to shoot tighter than that...

Try the same setup with round balls, only bench rest the gun, see if that tightens up the group, it should eliminate swaying of the barrel from the offhand stance...

Do you swab the barrel between shots?

I would also like to know what company made your .50 cal Hawken percussion rifle, some shoot better than others, also, what twist rifling does your gun have?

The slower twist seems to work better for round balls than faster twist in some guns...

Hang in there, everyone will help to get you shooting 8 inch groups or less at 100 yards...

 

Well that pretty much sucks.
Musketman asks the right questions. We need specifics about twist rate, if you swabbed bewteen shots, your patch lube, your patch material, ball diameter, cast or swagged ball and so on. The more details we have, the more we can help.
Also musketman is quite correct in asking if you have benched the thing and what kind of groups you get.
If you're shooting 3" groups at 100 from the bench then you need to work on your offhand shooting.
If you're getting 20" groups from the bench, then the best offhand shot in the world won't make the rifle shoot better.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Well that pretty much sucks.

'Fraid so. A muzzleloader has the potential to be just as accurate offhand as a sporter .22LR with bargan ammo. Few shooters can do it. Offhand shooting is as different from bench shooting as flying a plane is from driving a car. This is no reflection on you, but I get a kick out of nimrods who go to the range and shoot a 2" group at 100 yards off the bench and Proclaim "Well, I guess I'm ready for hunting." No, they're ready for shooting off a bench. Ask them to stand up and try it and you either get a shocked stare or mumbled excuse.

How much better did the sabots shoot? I have a 1:48" twist .50 cal. New Englander that will shoot Maxi-Hunters into 8" at 100 yards, offhand & iron sights, if I am on a roll, but won't put roundballs into 4" at 50 yards unless I load very lightly. So it gets fed conicals and I hunt with it during regular gun season. I SELDOM try a 100 yard offhand shot with ANY firearm unless it is a despirate act. Heck, the front sight on that New Englander is 3/32" and covers up 10" at 100 yards! Balancing that little target circle on top of that sight offhand is no mean feat. I do much better with a 1/16" gold bead or narrow silver blade.

Sit down and rest your arms on your knees and your group shrinks by half. Lean up against a tree, kneel, lay down, prop over a stump, anything to get a bit more stability.

 

There's a physics problem in operation here. Your body will never be able to provide the rock solid rest needed for optimum accuracy, espically off hand. Most of the tenny-tiney off hand groups you hear about are :bull:! For proof, check the actual measurements of off hand shooting at friendship or the olympics, with the same level of equipment, not set triggers micro peep sights and bull barrels.

I know there are others here that claim the ability to shoot those little bitty groups, but where are they when their country needs them? Not on the Olympic firing lines! Not at Ft. Benning teaching position shooting with the marksmanship training unit! Any instructor of formal shooting, and any formal shooter, will instantly admit that off hand groups will be their largest. Even good off hand groups will be large compared to other positions.

Into historic accuracy? Almost every documented report of shooting at more than 50 yards indicates that a rest was used to support the long heavy barrel of the frontier rifle. Most of the reports indicate that they favored prone position for their long range work.

Reputable instructors will tell you to ALWAYS USE A REST. Find a tree to lean against, a rock, a log, crossed sticks, use your ramrod if necessary. Off hand is just a class of shooting for range competition and should be used as little as possible in real life. One should never shoot off hand at 100 yards unless you are seeking a posthumus CMH for returning supression fire while your squad takes cover.

BUT 24" AT 100 YARDS!!! :crackup:

 

[bulletman]

I noticed this when looking through a leupould scope, I was holding like i do on all my guns, I thought was steady, well. I could not believe it , looking through that scope the gun was moving all over the darn place was no way in hek to hold a bull off hand its gonna move and alot too.

 

[RussB]

Ok, here we go again....shooting a .50 cal Hawken percussion rifle, 80gr (by volume) Pyrodex, patched balls, 100 yds. Aiming at the same 3" spot, shooting offhand, I put 26 shots all within a 24" dia. circle. Does this suck, or is this normal for a round ball at 100 yds? I tried a few shots with those "pseudo-sabots" (the ones with the plastic part attached to the back of the copper jacketed conical slug, can't remember the real name) and got a better grouping. I expected this from a pointy bullet, but I hate using them: the more you shoot, the harder they are to put in the barrel. Plus they cost too much compared to balls. Is this normal? Or am I expecting too much out of a colonial era weapon? Waddaya think? :: :hmm:

bdarin; It seems those more proficient than myself seem to think your "pattern" is less than desireable. For 26 shots I think it is pretty much what I may expect from my self with my .54 cal, and perhaps just a bit more than I would expect from .50.... but not by much.
:relax:Lighten up on yourself just a bit, it's not the end of the world! If the truth be known, you might well be in the winners circle with those off hand groups once all the off-hand scores are turned in.

My own .50 is a Penn Hunter cap buster with peep sights that will do better than 3" from the bench for five shots. My first five shots "off-hand" will sometimes better the 10" mark but more often than not, it is larger....sometimes much larger. Ten shots "off-hand" with the .50 seldom give me less than 15-20 inches....including all those I mis-called when the shot broke.

80gr pyrodex in the .50 is NOT my "target shootin" load. It does come quite close to my hunting load using FFg Goex at 95gr, which is a load I settled on as giving me the best of two worlds in accuracy and velocity.
Perhaps I'm just a lousy "off-hand" shot with the .50 and the .54 but Yat-ta-hay! That's real life.
OTH, my .58 cal Colt Musket using 42gr (weighed) FFFg will give me a better "off-hand" group than either of the supposingly more accurate sporting rifles...but only for five or six shots. (This may be something you want to try...give it your best for 5/6 shots, take a short break, and back to another 5/6 shots...it may look a little different)

Shooting off-hand is a skill that takes years to develop and it seems one never gets it just right. That's why I use a rest at every opportunity. (More pleasing to the soul, it seems.)
I also have two sight "pictures", because I know my off-hand has a different impact than my bench zero, and that's okay, I accept that.
The local guys around here just love to see me show up at shoots, that's probably why I get so many invitations... They know they won't be last when I show up!

But "Kattie Bar the Door" when we shoot three position! I have a lot more wins / places to my credit than losses, and I think it's because I accept the fact that I'm not an Olympic Class shooter when it comes to off-hand,(or any other position, for that matter.) I just do my best and let the cards fall where they may.
IMHO....26 shots, at 100 yd. all in 24", off-hand just ain't as bad as it sounds up front, anyone doubting this needs only to try it. But that's just my thoughts.
Russ

 

I shot 3 position competition for many years, and due to my also shooting Black Power rifles, I was a better offhand shot than most of those I competed against, in that 3 position shooting. I only say that to impress the fact that practise is paramount to good offhand shooting. Without determined offhand practise, offhand is a very difficult position, but the one most commonly use for hunting. Most people today, or in the 70s for that matter, don't shoot offhand unless they are involved in BP competition, and therefore, are quite poor at it. Your accuracy probably duplicates what most 'modern' shooters today are capable of IF they were to shoot 26 rounds- wheh!- what a venture!. For hunting, a 24" group isn't good enough for shooting game at that range. That's a fact, not just an opinion. Try 5 shots and tell us what happens. If you can put 5 shots onto a pie-plate at the same range, it's pretty good- above average & good enough for hunting at that range, from that position.
: For most of those target shooting guys to put 10 consecutive shots onto the scoring rings of a standard 100 yard target was wonderful shootng, for them, and they were using scopes. The only time they practised offhand was during competition - that's not good enough - and they never improved. This is only to show that offhand shooting is a difficult sport, but in shooting BP with a muzzleloader, with iron sights and shooting standing, you will steadily improve, given good practise.
: Shooting marathons of 26 shots isn't good practise. When you get tired, you fail to maintain good form and end up practising bad habits.
; The 'best' offhand, muzzleloader shooters can usually hold into 3" to 4" at 100 yards, offhand, for 5 shots. Groups like that, if centered on the bull, will get you in the top 3 every time, normally, and normally, the 3" centered grup will win. That competition is close.
; For a HUNTER to be confident in offhand shooting, he/she must be able to put all shots, say 5 consecutive, on a paper or pie plate. The longest range he/she can do that, is the maximum range they should be shooting at deer sized game, offhand. This is a good "Measure" of ability - for hunting. If you want to win a BP event, you must shoot better than pie-plate groups, but they are a good place to start- only practise will improve this. Shooting off the bench, won't help your offhand scores.

 

You will find you hold low powered scopes more steady than higher powdered ones. This is because with the higher powers, you over correct MORE & faster, than with lower powered ones.
: As well, it is common for average shots to shoot tighter offhand groups with good open sights than with scopes.
; IT takes much offhand practise to shoot well with scopes, let alone high powdered scopes.

 

[musketman]

Hey bdarin, you still out there?

Try backing your powder off by a 10-20 grains and see if that helps...

Since I never shot with you, I will give information like you're new to the sport, forgive me if you're not...

1. Greater amounts of powder cause larger recoils from the rifle, some people "pull" the sights off target from pre-recoil... (anticipation is a killer)

2. What is your shot to shot time? (if you're getting tired, the barrel will wave about the target) Also, heat rising from a rapidly fired barrel will distort the target image in your eye, thus spreading the group...

3. Is your gun too heavy for you to hold steady? (please don't take offense to this question, but some people have back problems and a heavy barreled gun pulls on their spine and hurts them to hold on target for any length of time without a rest...)

4. Trigger pull, is it set too heavy, thus causing the barrel to "jump" when pulled...

5. Lastly, breathing ... Take a deep breath, let out about half of that breath and hold it, "FIRE" and let out the rest... (breath in again, almost forgot to say that...)

 

[roundball]

Also, you might consider getting back to basics and starting your offhand at 25yds...then at 50yds, 75yds, etc.

 

[vanstg]

bdarin,
I have a .50 cal percussion rifle too. The first time I took it to the range, I got very bad groups at 25 yards, from a bench. I didn't even try shooting off hand at 100 yards, but I'm sure it would have sucked. Long story short... Changing the patches made a big difference. My groups improved a lot when I switched to thicker patches. Maybe you need to experiment a little more with powder charges, patch thickness, lube, ball size, etc. It's also important to be consistent on loading.

 

Everyone gave good advice. Daryl and Musketman gave great advice. As has been said before, offhand is the most difficult position to shoot acurately from and most folks aren't much good at it because they don't practice it. As you've obvoiusly learned you aren't going to be steady offhand. This is where trigger control, sight picture and breath control become so very important. Those and practice. Keep at it and those 24" groups will shrink to 4-6 inch groups and with better sighting equipment can go below 2 inches......even with my old eyes they do. You can't shoot any better than you can see.


Vic

 

[bdarin]

Whew! Certainly a ton of useful info. My Hawken is a CVA kit gun, uses a metric nipple (see the homemade nipple threads), barrel twist unknown. I am a little new to this BP rifle stuff, shot pistol for several years so am no stranger to the smell of sulfur. However, I thought about hunting with a muzzleloader and, after watching D.D. Lewis in "Last of the Mohicans", figgered I could do it like he did....shoot and kill at 1 light-year distance.:crackup: Guess they only do that in the movies. :RO: I guess for hunting I'll want a steady of some sort, correct? My 50 yard groups are MUCH tighter, I'm satisfied there, but I need to improve the 100 yarders cuz I need to have the first shot kill, I REFUSE to just wound an animal, so I need accuracy. I normally use 60 gr. loads for target, but I wanted to sight in with the real hunting load, which I figured was 80 gr. But 60 might work, as long as it'll kill a buck at 100 yds. I'll also try thicker patches...never thought of that. Thanks for all the help....this is one of the better boards I've been to. :thumbsup: :blah:

 

I carry a bamboo or bois d'arc walking stick that's six feet long when I hunt with a rifle. I carry the rifle in the right hand and the stick in the left. If I get a snap shot, I drop the stick and swing the rifle up to shoot. If I have time to rest, the rifle is on my left thumb while the fingers go around the stick. This gives a steady hold as far as I feel comfortable shooting.

If I have to climb a hill, I swap hands and use the stick in my right hand. This is actually easier walking most times because I am balanced so I don't notice the weight. I hunt in brush interspersed with open range and there are no trees worth trying to rest against (disregarding the thorns that everything has here...)

 

[Zonie]

Anvil, you stole my thunder! I couldn't agree more.

I would suggest taking a good 6 foot or so walking stick to the range and try your 100 yard offhand shooting using the stick to steady the gun as Anvil said.

I would be willing to bet your group shrinks at least 50%.
If the gun is capable of holding 5 inches at 100 yards off of the bench, you should be able to at least get something inside 10 inches with the stick support.

In rough areas, the walking stick does a great job of helping to keep your balance while walking. It's good for poking at unknown things like potentially loose rocks before you step on them.

 

[musketman]

I'm satisfied there, but I need to improve the 100 yarders cuz I need to have the first shot kill, I REFUSE to just wound an animal,

Until you get more proficient with your gun, you may want to cinder keeping your maximum shot range around 50-75 yards...

As always, shot placement is the key to "first shot kills," for hunting, I wouldn't go below 60 grains of powder if you're pushing those distances...

 

[tg]

I would suggest as stated before to bench shoot the gun to see where it is really shooting, and secondly back off the 100yd. goal for hunting 75yds is plenty of distance for taking deer with a .50 this will give you a bit of margin for error in range judgement as well.

 

[RussB]

Zonie, I think you're right on the money with the walking stick. It's amazing what one can do with just a wee bit of support.
My favorite "stick" has made quite a few trips over some pretty rough stuff, and it shows. OTOH, that's what gives it it's "character". My "other half" has done everything one could imagine to get that old stick out of the house, but it still hangs on. Kneeling, with a stick, can make a just a fair shooter a real threat. And I need that!
I've never shot those small groups I hear of off hand, not even when I was a young man, and age has done nothing to improve those skills. However, those little things like we are talking about keeps the freezer in pretty good shape.
Just my thoughts.
Russ

 

Well, leave it to me to fly in the face of logic, common sense, and accepted practice, but that's the way I am. I gotta tell it like I see it so pleeeeeeeeeease no one take offense to what I'm going to say.
bdarin:
This is the BEST forum with the best people as members.
Fantastic bunch of people here, and that includes YOU!
Well here's my view on this offhand shooting, but first a tiny bit of information about me.
In my younger days a did a bit of shooting. I never had a teacher as such so learned by reading and doing.
I didn't know that certain things were impossible so I went about my merry way doing things that shouldn't be done.
I had an old model Ruger Super Single Six before it was an old model.
Perhaps it was the most accurate pistol built, dunno, but with certain ammo it would print all six shots into 0.5" at 25 yards from the bench.
One summer I shot 10 thousand rounds of cheap Federal promo ammo that sold for 5 bucks a brick back then.
I could throw a metal disk the size of a half dollar with my left weak hand, draw and shoot the thing out of the air with my strong hand.
Hear this. I have NEVER, NOT ONCE, shot a deer using a rest.
In fact I think of the 50 odd deer I've taken with the gun, only 2 or 3 were resting! The majority of the deer I've taken were running full tilt.
You see where I hunt most people put on deer drives. When you see the thing it's running as fast as it can. If you wait for a standing shot you won't fire your gun at all.
Here are a few "impossible, can't do that" things I've done.
Shot a dove out of the air with a 2" Smith .38 spl.
Killed a deer with the SAME gun.
Shot a buck in a barber shop with a Smith 4506. No marksmanship there but it is unusual.
Shot 3 wood ducks with one shot, an ounce of 4's, never even saw but the one that I shot at.
Shot 3 fox squirrels with one shot and only saw the one, with a 3/4 ounce load of 6's from a 28 gauge pump. A forth ran out of the same tree so I bagged it and had my limit in less that 5 seconds.
Shot running button buck at 175 loooooong paces with a smoothbore 12 gauge Remington using Foster Winchester slugs, hit it in the back of the head.
Yeh, I know I shouldn't have taken the shot, but I did and the 4th shot hit the thing!
Here's one I didn't do, but watched the guy do it.
A fellow in our group BORROWED a .45 roundball shooter, a real piece of scrap Spanish something or another that he'd never even fired before.
We saw a small doe in a clearing a good 150 yards away so our hero tries the shot. Misses of course, reloads, misses again, the deer never twitched, just kept feeding like nothing was happening, the SIXTH shot hit the critter in the head!
The prettiest shot I ever made was with my Lyman GPH. At 80 yards a doe was facing me in a clearing so I shot for the breast, hit her square and she dropped on the spot without so much as a kick. One of the very few I shot that was NOT running full tilt.
I could go on, but you get the point.
Now get this. I have never practiced offhand shooting with a rifle.
I have done a LOT of shooting though. When I was a policeman I went to a bunch of really good training schools and in one week shot 5 thousand rounds of ammo.
Hey, the taxpayers paid for it, I just shot it up.
Now you may thing it's difficult to shoot that much ammo in a week, but keep in mind I was shooting machineguns, not muzzle loaders.
Also I shot a lot of trap and skeet, as much as 300 rounds in a week-end.
I did a lot of offhand pistol shooting in competition, the only time we were allowed to use a rest was at the 50 yard line.
I was pretty fair with the 4506 Smith and from a prone position I could put 8 shots into the K-5 zone at 100 yards.
I guess I never learned what CAN'T be done.
Mayber someday I'll try practicing at 100 yards offhand.