.50 cal pattern

[JerryToth]

Hi again Bdarin;

I hope that I don't risk offending you. Please understand that there are probably a couple of dozen other fellows out there in cyberspace reading this that are absolutely new to the sport. It is mostly for those fellows, most of whom we may never meet, that I will say the following.

You've been shooting BP pistol, so you are familiar with BP. Rifles, particularly the phenomenal roundball accuracy that is attainable through them is something that no one can fully realize until they've seen it.

When you say that "I had things going nicely at 50 yds", realize that I know a half a dozen fellows who can consistently break eggs at 50 yards. Medium eggs, not large! If you had things going this well at 50, stop reading. If you had 4" to 6" groups going at 50.... well, I used to think that was all frontstuffers would do too.

When you asked in your original post whether the patterns were the best that could be expected, you reveal that you haven't seen the extremely good fellows in action! I shot by myself, self-taught for years and I had absolutely NO IDEA what these "colonial era antiques" were capable of! Boy were my eyes opened when I first saw the fellows that can take this sport to a whole 'nother level!

The amazing thing is that the "next level" or very close to it, is attainable to just about anyone, with most rifles.

If your rifle is the standard, shallow-groove rifling, swabbing between shots is NOT a waste of time. If you have a deeper groove rifling, such as the Colerain deep, "radius-groove", there is a lot of tolerance for fouling build-up.

As to sabots, I'm only saying that they can leave a plastic film behind in the rifling. Be sure it's all cleaned out.

CVA pre-lubed, and my personal favorite for mediocre shooting and teaching beginners, Ox-Yoke .015 pre-lubed patches, are indeed "just fine". However, and this is for the dozens of beginners also reading this, it is possible to do MUCH BETTER. Fellows that are "in-the-know", micrometer there patching material. A compressed difference of one or two thousandths of an inch can make a difference of inches in group size at 50 yards.

If a person doesn't understand the variables, they will do "OK" with the 4" or 6" groups at 50 yards. Maybe they will get lucky and stumble into the perfect load for their rifle.

But unless a person does the systematic approach to all the variables, it's questionable whether they will realize the full potential of their rifle.

The absolute best $14 that I ever spent in muzzleloading, (and now it's $15.) is when I bought a copy of the Dutch Schoultz Blackpowder Accuracy System. Dutch is a fine 70 year old gentleman who frequents the MLML forum. He put together a full explanation of all the variables that I am so poorly trying to explain. I have no business connection to the gentleman, but if any beginner who doesn't have a personal coach, wants to accelerate his learning curve, he would do well to purchase the system! Dutch has a website at http://www.mindspring.com/~dr5x/

Again Bdarin, please don't think I'm being too forward with all of this. I hope I've not offended. I shall speak no more of this.

Regards,

Ironsights Jerry.

 

[bdarin]

Jerry, you can say all you want and, unless you call me an a**hole, I won't be offended. There's always something to learn from someone else. Went out today and (with my new ramrod) ran about 25 or so at 75 yards. We're looking much better. Groupings are about 10 inches diameter, mostly low, so I'll have to aim a little higher. I'm not in this to put 5 balls through the same hole, just one through a buck's heart, so I don't need super accuracy. When I can get 'em all in a 3" circle at 75, I figure I'll be ready. Practice, practice, practice. I'm improving daily, so I think I've found the sweet spot, I just need to keep at it. Miking your patch??? :what: Why are we getting so techie? I try to do it the same way the pioneers did it, and they didn't have micrometers. They shot just fine without one, I don't see the need for such pickiness. Find a combo of powder, patch, and ball and stick with it. If it worked for Danl Boone it'll work for me, the physics haven't changed over the last 300 years. :imo: :m2c: :results: :blah:

 

[roundball]

:agree:

And I try to remember to ask myself this little question:

WWDD?





(What Would Daniel Do)

 

[Whitesmoke]

"If it worked for Danl Boone it'll work for me, the physics haven't changed over the last 300 years."

But just think....what if Daniel Boone Had a micrometer?? :crackup:

 

Old Dan did the next best thing. He used thread count in the linen. He insisted on using a very dense thread count cloth when he could get it. several times he was known to complain about the quality of the lenin the settlers were forced to use for patching. I guess he did not like "blown patches" either.

They knew and used all of the tricks we know and use when the conditions allowed or called for them. Tight patch when you had time, naked ball when you had too!

The european target shooters hammered oversize bullets down their barrels during target matches during the 1500s just like we do at Friendship today.

My worst gun will shoot better than 10" at 75 yards without patching the ball!!! There's a thingy on the front and a thing on the back and you are supposed to get them lined up sort of!! New York should institute an acccuracy requirement!!! But that is the state where the farmers have to label the livestock during the hunting season I hear.

 

[bulletman]

he;s right, you dont NEED anything, But for me its a great big WANT !....eheheeee, I didnt micro the patch But I sure did experiment alot one variable at a time, and finally brought mine from over a foot to inches..I think when we talk about the 1800's and the shooters , what they used and all we mostly know in general stuff, like they used this and that and so on, we dont have the first hand stories of shooters saying stuff like i used exactly so much bear snot then my groups shrunk. I think alot of them did experiment and found just the right combo like alot of us do. But 100 years from now , they will just say we used blue jeans and cleaning oil soap.

 

[bdarin]

Harp...you're right about the 100 years from now thing. People then will think of us the way we think of Civil War folks. They'll argue over stuff like "Did the 1967 Mustang come with a 289 or a 350?" or "What type of headers did they use in 1965? We want to be authentic." We're as different now as they were then. Dan Boone did what he had to to get the kill on the first shot, we do the same, whatever it takes. Doesn't mean his way is better than mine, just different. Long as it works, who cares? :imo: :m2c:

 

'67 Mustang 289 - had no trouble slaying it with the '68 283 Malibou or my '69 307 Chevelle - HA!

 

[Charles/NM]

I went back and reviewed this thread. I don't see where you mentioned the twist rate of your CVA barrel but my old out of date CVA catalog lists a 1 in 48" for their St. Louis Hawken kit gun. If so, that may be part of your problem. My 48" twist T/C Hawken's groups dirverge someting awful with more than a 60 to 65 grain load with PRB or stubby light weight Ball-Ets. I found my patches were in pretty bad shape. Using an Ox Yoke wad under the patched ball made a huge difference and tightened up my groups a lot. I'd rather have a root canal than shoot paper targets but I seem to be getting 3/4" groups at 50 yards with 60 to 70 grains of Pyrodex powder, .490" balls,.015" pillow ticking patch lubed with T/C yellow goo and a Ox Yoke wad over the powder and a 'hot' Remington #11 cap. My hunting load is a 350 grain T/C Maxi-Hunter bought prelubed at Wal Mart. Dead on accuracy out to my self imposed hunting limit of 75 yards. I'd guess 1" to 1 1/2" groups based on shooting at coffee cans.
As another bit of info: As best I can tell, the infamous Greenhill formula predicts a 350 grain bullet as optimum for my rifle and it has been proven to be correct at least for me and my trusty old vintage T/C Hawken.

 

[bdarin]

My ultimate goal is 3" groups at 75 yds. Yes, it's a 1-48 twist, which I guess I'm gonna hafta live with. I'd rather hunt with this thing than shoot paper as well, but first need to work on shrinking the grouping before actually using it on something that can run away. Ox Yoke wads, eh? Is that a brand name? Wheredja get em? This entire thread has been most informative. :thumbsup: