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.50 cal pattern
- Thread starter bdarin
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Point??? There's supposed to be a point?
Well.... there ain't no point but ya gotta admit they are good stories heh?
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r.b. The original post grew into a discussion about offhand shooting. I was trying to point out that I've never practiced offhand shooting at 100 yards with a rifle, but other shooting practices kicked in and I've managed to shoot deer on the run pretty well.
I think that was the point, but then I like to tell stories and jabber whenever I can...endlessly.
I think that was the point, but then I like to tell stories and jabber whenever I can...endlessly.
Guest
sounded good to me- always have bene jealous of those who can legally hutn with handguns- anyway, like Maxiball, I've learned on shoot on my hind legs, but most of that has come form shooting the muzzleoaders. They were the prime teacing instrument that helped out so much when I took up target shooting. We always shot from hour hind legs with the long rifles (or Hawkens for that matter) and held stool shooters in contempt due to their innacuray when standing.
; As far as game shooting, it is an uncommon event when I've taken a rest, but have taken that rest on EVERY occasion a rest was convenient. Mostly they aren't, but about 50% of the time, dropping to a kneeling position is all that's required to "hit the spot". A shooting/walking stick is a very good idea for those whose hunting methods will allow. When I'm stalking or walking a trail on tracks, I'm kinda hunched over, moving, ever so slowly, rifle in both hands, stopping every two steps to look ALL 'round - 360 degrees- then a couple more steps- again, look- all around, 360 degrees. There's no one to carry the stick for me. It is a great idea if your hunting situation allows, though, as when I'm small game shooting. Small animals at long ranges ,requires an extra support, for sure.
; As far as game shooting, it is an uncommon event when I've taken a rest, but have taken that rest on EVERY occasion a rest was convenient. Mostly they aren't, but about 50% of the time, dropping to a kneeling position is all that's required to "hit the spot". A shooting/walking stick is a very good idea for those whose hunting methods will allow. When I'm stalking or walking a trail on tracks, I'm kinda hunched over, moving, ever so slowly, rifle in both hands, stopping every two steps to look ALL 'round - 360 degrees- then a couple more steps- again, look- all around, 360 degrees. There's no one to carry the stick for me. It is a great idea if your hunting situation allows, though, as when I'm small game shooting. Small animals at long ranges ,requires an extra support, for sure.
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Whew!
No, on second thought: WHOOOEEEE!
Lots to read, and I sure wouldn't try to top Maxiball's account.
One thing to think about bdarin: Twenty-six offhand shots is a LOOOOOONG string. Fatigue becomes a real issue. Add in a bit of frustration as your group grew, and I'm surprised your group wasn't 46 inches. Break that down into eight 3-shot groups, and I bet some of the first four were a whole lot better than the last four. I'd be suprised if your last three shots didn't account for most of the 24". There's a lot of muscle and reflex conditioning in good offhand shooting. You would have to be made of steel to shrink that group if you shot 26 straight shots.
Try shooting a three shot group, then doing something else for a while to get the circulation flowing and rest yourself. Then shoot another three shot group at a fresh target- Can't beat a new, fresh target when you need to forgive yourself for a past stinker.
Along the way, you need to build your confidence, and shooting the way you did (26 shots in a row) would be the worst thing in the world, along those lines.
No, on second thought: WHOOOEEEE!
Lots to read, and I sure wouldn't try to top Maxiball's account.
One thing to think about bdarin: Twenty-six offhand shots is a LOOOOOONG string. Fatigue becomes a real issue. Add in a bit of frustration as your group grew, and I'm surprised your group wasn't 46 inches. Break that down into eight 3-shot groups, and I bet some of the first four were a whole lot better than the last four. I'd be suprised if your last three shots didn't account for most of the 24". There's a lot of muscle and reflex conditioning in good offhand shooting. You would have to be made of steel to shrink that group if you shot 26 straight shots.
Try shooting a three shot group, then doing something else for a while to get the circulation flowing and rest yourself. Then shoot another three shot group at a fresh target- Can't beat a new, fresh target when you need to forgive yourself for a past stinker.
Along the way, you need to build your confidence, and shooting the way you did (26 shots in a row) would be the worst thing in the world, along those lines.
RussB
45 Cal.
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[quote...Point??? There's supposed to be a point?
Well.... there ain't no point but ya gotta admit they are good stories heh? [/quote]
Ya hang in there Maxi! I, for one, have enjoyed your "stories" over the years. I have had a few shots that were remarkable in one way or the other, when I flinched just right, jerked on the trigger hard enough, or tried to shoot while out of breath,......but none of them were repeatable.
There's an old saying that to shoot off-hand one must learn to trust their "wobbles". And I do. They don't lie.
I probably shoot as much as anyone on this board. I average two, many times three range days a week. I sometimes shoot as many as four / five days straight trying different "stuff".
I'm not saying this to impress anyone....after all, I'm in my mid 60's, retired, and trying to play catch up for all the years I missed while working....I am saying this simply to say, I have come to realize my off-hand limitations more so in the last ten years than ever before.
Standing on my hind legs burning powder is wasting powder! Because this too is not repeatable. I learn nothing from this I didn't already know, sometimes I'm pretty good, sometimes I'm not so pretty good, that's how it's been all my life. There are days when I'm a real threat when I walk on the firing line, then there are just as many and probably more when I ain't worth a nickle. I have a lot of respect for those who can continually shoot their best day-in, and day-out. Those folks are darn few and far between! Most have their days. And it's those days that we're on that wins matches and brings home the bacon.
With just a little bit of assistance, ie rest...I know, or learn, what to expect. I also know that if I do my part off-hand that impact is not going to change a whole lot. It's the "doing my part off-hand" that bothers me most, because I do know my capabilities. And, a rest of any kind, beats heck out of no rest when I'm on the trigger.
Anytime I fire 20 plus shots off-hand at a stationary target I am asking for disapointment...and I usually get it. My BEST shot off-hand will, in all likely hood, be that first shot....I would suspect it's that way with most of us.
Respectfully, Russ
Well.... there ain't no point but ya gotta admit they are good stories heh? [/quote]
Ya hang in there Maxi! I, for one, have enjoyed your "stories" over the years. I have had a few shots that were remarkable in one way or the other, when I flinched just right, jerked on the trigger hard enough, or tried to shoot while out of breath,......but none of them were repeatable.
There's an old saying that to shoot off-hand one must learn to trust their "wobbles". And I do. They don't lie.
I probably shoot as much as anyone on this board. I average two, many times three range days a week. I sometimes shoot as many as four / five days straight trying different "stuff".
I'm not saying this to impress anyone....after all, I'm in my mid 60's, retired, and trying to play catch up for all the years I missed while working....I am saying this simply to say, I have come to realize my off-hand limitations more so in the last ten years than ever before.
Standing on my hind legs burning powder is wasting powder! Because this too is not repeatable. I learn nothing from this I didn't already know, sometimes I'm pretty good, sometimes I'm not so pretty good, that's how it's been all my life. There are days when I'm a real threat when I walk on the firing line, then there are just as many and probably more when I ain't worth a nickle. I have a lot of respect for those who can continually shoot their best day-in, and day-out. Those folks are darn few and far between! Most have their days. And it's those days that we're on that wins matches and brings home the bacon.
With just a little bit of assistance, ie rest...I know, or learn, what to expect. I also know that if I do my part off-hand that impact is not going to change a whole lot. It's the "doing my part off-hand" that bothers me most, because I do know my capabilities. And, a rest of any kind, beats heck out of no rest when I'm on the trigger.
Anytime I fire 20 plus shots off-hand at a stationary target I am asking for disapointment...and I usually get it. My BEST shot off-hand will, in all likely hood, be that first shot....I would suspect it's that way with most of us.
Respectfully, Russ
Guest
I have seen very good offhand target shooting - it's called Schuetzen. My mother's family is German and I grew up watching the men shoot competition for prizes. I saw 32-40 and 38-55 single shots as a boy but then everyone switched to smokeless in the 1960's and started shooting 22-250's and the like. My cousins and uncles shot both offhand and from a ladder rest, i.e., they rested the very end of the rifle on a stepped board and hung the hooked buttplate on their shoulder. With the rest and open iron barrel sights (not peeps...) the folks who won were shooting 1" groups at 200 yards. Offhand groups with a Schuetzen rifle in the older calibers and a palmrest yielded 2-3 inch groups at the same distance. This was purely offhand with no rest but the elbow of the holding arm was stuck on a hip to help steady the rifle. My eyes were never good enough to compete like this but I did soak up technique. They said that no human can hold a rifle absolutely still so the solution was to create a moving harmonic, making the sights move in a small circle. This requires practice to master but it can be done.
I also have a close friend who is the best offhand shot I have ever seen with a rifle on game. He practices all year long at offhand and on various rests with a 300 Win Mag. It's the only rifle he uses. Last season, he killed a nice 10 point buck with one shot at a paced 267 steps. The deer was walking quickly across a small piece of open ground between brushy spots. Stuart said he shouldered and shot in about 3 seconds. Any longer and the deer would have disappeared.
Because my eyes are nicht sehr gut, I began shooting pistols at an early age and kept at it religiously. I have expended thousands of rounds and subsequently made more "impossible" shots with a pistol than long guns, but I think it goes back to familiarity and practice - not because I am inherently better with a side arm.
What does this have to do with ML? I think it pays to become very familiar with a minimum number of guns (remember the old saw - beware the man with one rifle) and practice as much as possible in ALL positions. The great thing is that ML is such good fun, there is no reason not to shoot any chance you can...
I also have a close friend who is the best offhand shot I have ever seen with a rifle on game. He practices all year long at offhand and on various rests with a 300 Win Mag. It's the only rifle he uses. Last season, he killed a nice 10 point buck with one shot at a paced 267 steps. The deer was walking quickly across a small piece of open ground between brushy spots. Stuart said he shouldered and shot in about 3 seconds. Any longer and the deer would have disappeared.
Because my eyes are nicht sehr gut, I began shooting pistols at an early age and kept at it religiously. I have expended thousands of rounds and subsequently made more "impossible" shots with a pistol than long guns, but I think it goes back to familiarity and practice - not because I am inherently better with a side arm.
What does this have to do with ML? I think it pays to become very familiar with a minimum number of guns (remember the old saw - beware the man with one rifle) and practice as much as possible in ALL positions. The great thing is that ML is such good fun, there is no reason not to shoot any chance you can...
Guest
Back when a young policeman, myself, I was an avid admirer of Elmer Keith. I packed a .44, unknow to most and practised with it several times a week, becoming quite proficient with it's short sight radius in an equally short period of time. It was exceptionally accurate and the only load I shot was 21gr. 2400 and a 275gr. SWC. Roughly 3,000 rounds a month, over 3 months of intense training, all cast, sized and lubed by your's truely. I also practised a lot at 100 to 300 yards as well, becoming very accurate at those extended ranges, normally thought to be long rifle ranges. The gun has loosened up a bit, but is still making 5" groups at 100yds. off the bags using it's factory sights.
: Point - Elmer always said that hitting at long range with a handgun was purely accidental, but the guy who shot one every day, knew his gun, and practised at long range with it, would have more long range accidents than the guy that didn't.
: Good practise, in any event, is rewarded with increased skill in that event.
: We had a 2' steel gong target at 225yds. at the mountain range I attended, and that little 4" was good for 5 hits out of 6 EVERY time I shot at it, standing. :results: Mind you, it was only 225yds. away & quite large, but it was enough to impress upon me that Elmer :master: was a fantastic handgun shot & spoke the truth.
: Point - Elmer always said that hitting at long range with a handgun was purely accidental, but the guy who shot one every day, knew his gun, and practised at long range with it, would have more long range accidents than the guy that didn't.
: Good practise, in any event, is rewarded with increased skill in that event.
: We had a 2' steel gong target at 225yds. at the mountain range I attended, and that little 4" was good for 5 hits out of 6 EVERY time I shot at it, standing. :results: Mind you, it was only 225yds. away & quite large, but it was enough to impress upon me that Elmer :master: was a fantastic handgun shot & spoke the truth.
Actually, BrownBear, I did take it in 3-4 shot bursts. Sorry, I should've mentioned that right off. Take a few shots, then walk 100 yds. to the target and circle the new holes with a pen. Then walk back to the stand and do it all again. I'll go out and practice more next week and will report back then. That is IF IT EVER F$%^^%$#@ STOPS RAINING AROUND HERE!!! :curse: :winking:
Guest
Daryl,
I started with a 44 Super Blackhawk and developed a horrible flinch that had to be overcome before I could shoot well. I started buying 44 Specials and shortly thereafter began casting bullets and reloading. I loaded and shot thousands of shells and eventually got to where I could hit a 55 gallon drum regularly at 300 yds. This was in the '70's before metallic silhouette became popular. I put gold bars on the Ruger front sight using nail polish to help with range holding. Later, I traded for an old S&W Model 29 with 6-1/2 bbl and still have it. We have a 3x4 foot rock at the deer lease that's 423 yards by laser rangefinder from camp. Once the shots are walked up, I can hit it 3-4 shots out of every cylinder. I can also do it with my 4" S&W 41 Mag. I'm not Ed McGivern or Elmer Keith - but it all boils down to practice, practice, practice...good archers shoot lots of arrows, too.
I started with a 44 Super Blackhawk and developed a horrible flinch that had to be overcome before I could shoot well. I started buying 44 Specials and shortly thereafter began casting bullets and reloading. I loaded and shot thousands of shells and eventually got to where I could hit a 55 gallon drum regularly at 300 yds. This was in the '70's before metallic silhouette became popular. I put gold bars on the Ruger front sight using nail polish to help with range holding. Later, I traded for an old S&W Model 29 with 6-1/2 bbl and still have it. We have a 3x4 foot rock at the deer lease that's 423 yards by laser rangefinder from camp. Once the shots are walked up, I can hit it 3-4 shots out of every cylinder. I can also do it with my 4" S&W 41 Mag. I'm not Ed McGivern or Elmer Keith - but it all boils down to practice, practice, practice...good archers shoot lots of arrows, too.
Hay Maxi: Whey ye say "Shot a buck in a barber shop with a Smith 4506. No marksmanship there but it is unusual.
Shot 3 wood ducks ..."
Ah gots ta ask, Why were the buck in the barber shop? Wer he gettin his hair cut or was he just thar fer a shave? :crackup:
Shot 3 wood ducks ..."
Ah gots ta ask, Why were the buck in the barber shop? Wer he gettin his hair cut or was he just thar fer a shave? :crackup:
So, was the 26 shots all within a 24" dia. circle the total of all groups shot, or that wide in a 3-4 shot bursts?
What was the size of the 3-4 shot bursts?
That will let us know what your gun is capable of holding...
That would have kept the snickering to a minimum, hope they didn't bust your bubble... :haha:
Guest
Zonie. I tell STORIES, makes FACTS interesting to add a litlle poetic license, but I DO NOT LIE and I know you didn't say I did that. Many that hear my stories think it's all :bull:, but NOT. 'Tis all true.
The poor deer was spooked from a wooded lot neear the city limits, ran across the highway in a panic, into a shopping mall, the barber shop was at the end of the mall with a large front window someone painted around the edges with woods scenes, ferns leaves and so on. The deer may have thinked it were going for the woods. Instead went thru the window into said barber shop here it were traped and tore the place up. Early a.m. so the place wasn't open.
Deer was cut up, lower jaw broken, weren't gonna live, sooooooo, I shot the poor beast with the carry gun, my 4506 Smith. Dog warden shows up with his van, we take deer to nearby processing plant and I got venison!
Squirrels. All youngsters, 4 or more, in a leafy oak. I saw only the tail of one. Shot with the 28 gauge, down falls THREE. 4th runs out on a limb and I take that'n.
As has been said, shoot long enough, spend enouph time in the woods and weird things become commonplace.
Take the time that I............................
:haha: :haha: :haha:
The poor deer was spooked from a wooded lot neear the city limits, ran across the highway in a panic, into a shopping mall, the barber shop was at the end of the mall with a large front window someone painted around the edges with woods scenes, ferns leaves and so on. The deer may have thinked it were going for the woods. Instead went thru the window into said barber shop here it were traped and tore the place up. Early a.m. so the place wasn't open.
Deer was cut up, lower jaw broken, weren't gonna live, sooooooo, I shot the poor beast with the carry gun, my 4506 Smith. Dog warden shows up with his van, we take deer to nearby processing plant and I got venison!
Squirrels. All youngsters, 4 or more, in a leafy oak. I saw only the tail of one. Shot with the 28 gauge, down falls THREE. 4th runs out on a limb and I take that'n.
As has been said, shoot long enough, spend enouph time in the woods and weird things become commonplace.
Take the time that I............................
:haha: :haha: :haha:
Whitesmoke
32 Cal.
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Lots of useful replies here. Being a former Master class Hi-Power Service Rifle shooter, I do know some about shooting offhand. I would definatly bench the gun to eliminate any(most) human error. That way you know the sights are correct for your given load. Next, don't shoot too much too fast. Fatigue is a huge factor when shooting offhand. My AR15 weighs 14.5 lbs, so I learned fast that you must not fatigue yourself when practicing. Too little practice is probably better than bad practice. The basics of offhand shooting are the same regardless of the firearm. Lots of info is out there on the subject if you search for it. I've personally never had to fire offhand at a deer. IN a treestand or sitting on the ground, I can always shoot using the standard sitting position, which gives you a good solid base for support. If you hunt in the wide open areas, the above suggestion of using shooting sticks is right on the money :imo:
OK, well, just got back from the range. Made some changes as per y'all's advice: lowered the charge to 60 gr., lowered the yardage to 75, used a kneeling position and some using a stick. Groupings were MUCH better, like within 10-12" circle. Will work on offhand again tomorrow. See "Second stupidest thing..." thread for reason I had to quit early. :huh:
Hi Bdarin;
I've followed this thread for a couple of weeks now. It looks like only a few of us addressed the intent behind your original question. Several of us got very interested in the offhand shooting portion of your dilemna, and you'll need to forgive us but we're all interested in developing our offhand skills.
So anyway, back to the original concern....
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but I understand that you're relatively new to BP shooting?
The back to basics comment is the core of what you need to be concerned with. Again, please forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your knowledge level with Blackpowder...
Every rifle will have a sweet load, a sweet patch thickness, a sweet lube amount on the patching... If you combine the best load, the best patch thickness, and the best lube with a consistent wiping procedure, you will find the single best and most accurate load with your rifle.
Every rifle is different, so we can only offer you rough ranges of what might work. For example, with a 50 caliber, usually 70 or 75 grains of Goex FFg blackpowder will be a good starting point. I don't know anything about Pyrodex, so maybe the other fellows can help you out there.
You need to find the most accurate load, patch thickness, and lubing. Have you done this work yet? It is typically done at 25 to 50 yards, and definitely OFF THE BENCH! Once you find the ideal load for your rifle, you might be well advised to stick with it.
You will need to CHANGE ONLY ONE OF THESE VARIABLES AT A TIME!!! Until you find the best load for your rifle, don't even think about hunting distances or offhand technique, that all comes later.
I'm not trying to sound too harsh or maybe cranky, but I'm concerned that you are new to our much loved sport and that you may be having a bad experience at your beginning. I didn't have any one to teach me when I was new so I'm very empathetic to new fellows struggling with all of this.
One thing that you may need to look at before you begin the search for your MOST ACCURATE LOAD is whether you have your barrel all plugged up with plastic from shooting those sabots? Make sure all that is cleaned out, or you'll get nowhere.
So, first develop your load. Feel free to ask questions about anything you don't understand about how to do this.
Again, I apologize if I misunderstand and underestimate your level of knowledge about shooting a black powder rifle. I certainly mean no offense. My fear is that we may allow a new fellow to struggle needlessly to a point of frustration and perhaps abandon this marvelous sport.
Regards,
Ironsights Jerry.
I've followed this thread for a couple of weeks now. It looks like only a few of us addressed the intent behind your original question. Several of us got very interested in the offhand shooting portion of your dilemna, and you'll need to forgive us but we're all interested in developing our offhand skills.
So anyway, back to the original concern....
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but I understand that you're relatively new to BP shooting?
The back to basics comment is the core of what you need to be concerned with. Again, please forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your knowledge level with Blackpowder...
Every rifle will have a sweet load, a sweet patch thickness, a sweet lube amount on the patching... If you combine the best load, the best patch thickness, and the best lube with a consistent wiping procedure, you will find the single best and most accurate load with your rifle.
Every rifle is different, so we can only offer you rough ranges of what might work. For example, with a 50 caliber, usually 70 or 75 grains of Goex FFg blackpowder will be a good starting point. I don't know anything about Pyrodex, so maybe the other fellows can help you out there.
You need to find the most accurate load, patch thickness, and lubing. Have you done this work yet? It is typically done at 25 to 50 yards, and definitely OFF THE BENCH! Once you find the ideal load for your rifle, you might be well advised to stick with it.
You will need to CHANGE ONLY ONE OF THESE VARIABLES AT A TIME!!! Until you find the best load for your rifle, don't even think about hunting distances or offhand technique, that all comes later.
I'm not trying to sound too harsh or maybe cranky, but I'm concerned that you are new to our much loved sport and that you may be having a bad experience at your beginning. I didn't have any one to teach me when I was new so I'm very empathetic to new fellows struggling with all of this.
One thing that you may need to look at before you begin the search for your MOST ACCURATE LOAD is whether you have your barrel all plugged up with plastic from shooting those sabots? Make sure all that is cleaned out, or you'll get nowhere.
So, first develop your load. Feel free to ask questions about anything you don't understand about how to do this.
Again, I apologize if I misunderstand and underestimate your level of knowledge about shooting a black powder rifle. I certainly mean no offense. My fear is that we may allow a new fellow to struggle needlessly to a point of frustration and perhaps abandon this marvelous sport.
Regards,
Ironsights Jerry.
Iron....you're half right. I've been shooting BP pistol since the 70's but just started this year with rifle. Your points are well taken. I had things going nicely at 50 yds, but when I made the jump to 100 it all went to hell in a handbasket. So I'll calm down and keep at it. BTW, I hate sabots. They might be accurate, but they're a PITA to load, especially after the first few. And swabbing between shots is, to me, a waste of time. I been using Pyrodex and the bore's not all that dirty after 20 shots, much less one. Patches are CVA pre-lubed, they work just fine. Goin' out again today, will keep y'all posted on results. We're gettin' there. :results:
