50 cal TC 1:48 twist reasonable accuracy?

[Kansas Jake]

Dutch’s system is available on eBay. His daughter is making it available.

https://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

 

[William O.]

His kids took over The System after his passing. Harold had the foresight to assure his knowledge and experience would still be shared.
His legacy lives on,

Oh, I hadn't heard that but that's fantastic nonetheless!

 

[Nuthatch]

Off a good rest, with my Traditions percussion rifle, I can reliably hit a 1" circle at 50 yards about half the time. The other half is darned close. Load is 70 gr Pyrodex RS, .490 with 0.018 pillow ticking. Any lube -- bore butter, spit, bear grease, water-based lube, it's all good.

Same powder with .480 ball & 0.02 denim does just as good.

Now out of my Pedersoli with a 1:48, I don't do as good. Still trying to figure it out. But it might just be a sight issue. Could also just be that Roman nose design that makes shooting off a rest painful. But I also haven't spent much time shooting commercial powders in it -- just homebrew.

 

[hanshi]

A twist rate of 1-48" dates back to our ancestors. That rot was rather common back when. As I've mentioned before a twist of 1-48" will shoot as accurately with prb as a much slower one, IF. The "if" is the groove depth. The groove depth has to be at least .006" or preferably deeper. It takes a good groove depth to "bite" into a prb and spin it and to make sure the prb doesn't skip over the rifling. The rifle with the most shallow groove depth in my safe is a .54 (.006") and it is a tack driver with prb. I've owned rifles with a 1-48" rot and they shot accurately and right along with slower twist rifles.

 

[Bad Karma]

A twist rate of 1-48" dates back to our ancestors. That rot was rather common back when. As I've mentioned before a twist of 1-48" will shoot as accurately with prb as a much slower one, IF. The "if" is the groove depth. The groove depth has to be at least .006" or preferably deeper. It takes a good groove depth to "bite" into a prb and spin it and to make sure the prb doesn't skip over the rifling. The rifle with the most shallow groove depth in my safe is a .54 (.006") and it is a tack driver with prb. I've owned rifles with a 1-48" rot and they shot accurately and right along with slower twist rifles.

I believe Bobby Hoyt will cut TC grooves deeper for this purpose.

i also recall someone from this board doing it at home as well. Used a home made cutter and a lot of time and elbow grease.

 

[david w]

Thanks for replies---makes me think. I'll do some more testing with Tripple Seven FF, in 5 grain increments (probably 65 to 85 grains) and, I found some Tripple Seven fffg, so will try that also. My old shoulder doesn't like the recoil so probably won't try the conical even though I think they would probably be a better hunting load. Looking to get better accuracy out of the RB.

I'd like to get 2.5 inches in 100 yds off the bench, but first need to get a lot better at 50 yards! Thanks again.

The use of conical bullets on deer sized critters is over doing it. I have hunted with round balls for several years, and balls are all that is needed. Unless you are dead set on using subs, I can't contribute much other than in all my BP rifles, nothing beats traditional black powder.

 

[TreeMan]

With old eyes and possibly a big thick front sight (that can be focused on), two inches at 50 yards might be the best that can be done. It might just be you that is hindering getting less than 2” groups. I myself can shoot cloverleafs one day and the next day with the same gun shoot three inch groups at the same distance. Lighting and other conditions just mess with the old eyes.

 

[07Kingpin]

Interesting thread.

Have a TC Hawken that I've been getting components together for, will be trying to wring all the accuracy I can out of it- will be keeping track of this and similar threads- thanks!

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I won a lot of prizes with a standard T/C Hawken, 50 caliber, 1 /48" twist. 50gr fffg, .495 ball and .015 patch. No hotrod parts, no recut barrel, no flamethrower nipple: nothing.

 

[07Kingpin]

Sounds like a good shooter what were ranges and group sizes like?

 

[Ozark Mtn Muzzleloader]

I find that with they shoot tighter groups with lighter charges. For targets I used to shoot between 50 & 65 grains by volume of FFG real black: I believe that more powder simply causes the ball/patch to skip or skid over/through the rifling. Also, if the OP isn’t wiping between shots, he will likely get better results if he does. Though interestingly, a 54 caliber TC I own doesn’t seem to mind more powder. Go figure.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Sounds like a good shooter what were ranges and group sizes like?

Many years ago, offhand matches so I really didn't play around much with group size once it hit where I held it. 50 grains fffg worked well out to 50 yards. Bumped up the powder charge to 70 grains at 100 yards. There were a number of good shooters in OH who brought home the groceries with Hawkens in those days.

 

[nkbj]

48" twist is OK in a .58.
Better in a .54.
Not too fast at all in a .50.
Goldilocks in a .45.
Plenty quick in a .40.

 

[RIDE-RED350R]

I've never fired PRB from my 1:48 twist Renegade with any degree of serious intent to find an accurate load. It's got me kind of curious now to see if it really lives up to the claim at being good with both PRB and Maxis. It shoots Maxis pretty dern well, I can say that much.

Right now my Hawken is my best Maxi shooter. Lays em in there nice and tight.

Can say my PA Hunter with it's slower twist shoots PRB quite satisfactory too. Not quite as tight as the Hawken does with Maxis, but I suspect my being very very new to flintlock might account for a bit looser group. I doubt if I'll even try Maxis in that

Pic of my first three shots with the PA Hunter at 50yds.
Elevation was right on the money but I had a little windage slop. Likely the goon behind the trigger .

 

[morehops52]

I glance quickly at the Dutch Schoultz site and like it very much....Will most likely get the book.

Dutch will show you how to get your tightest groups.

 

[stronics]

Guys, I'm curious, do you have any trouble setting off the charge with regular caps on a side lock? With 777?
I've never tried it. Black powder is getting harder to get around here.
David

 

[2 shots]

just for sport try over powder wads. see what happens.

 

[Harmonica Bob]

Wading in deep here. Trying to work up the most (reasonably) accurate Round Ball load with my TC 50 1:48 twist. Has Peep sight (old eyes). Using Tripple seven FF. .490 Round Ball Patched with .170 ticking and Bore butter. Best accuracy I am getting at 50 yds is barely inside of 2" . Not sure I can reasonably expect much better.

I've shot10 grains more and less but groups open. I've shot .495 with same patch and ball combos and groups are worse.

Thinking about trying tripple seven fff if I can get some.

What is your load and what accuracy are you getting?

Others may have had better results than you and me with that 1 in 48, .005 button rifleing, 28 inch, TC Hawken barrel. Those barrels tend to shoot slugs better than they do round balls. It's a "compromise" barrel. 2 inch groups are not really that bad. Over 30 years ago, I bought a "drop in" Green Mtn. slow twist, deep cut grooves, round ball barrel fot my TC Hawken. It shoot's 2 inch groups at 100 yds. That does not mean that you can't shoot much tighter groups! What I would do is start from scratch, with Dutch Schoultz's book "Black Powder Rifle Accuracy" available on ebay. Dutch taught me how to shoot round balls back in the 1980's. I never looked back, and only shoot round balls in my 3 round ball rifle's.

 

[Harmonica Bob]

Guys, I'm curious, do you have any trouble setting off the charge with regular caps on a side lock? With 777?
I've never tried it. Black powder is getting harder to get around here.
David

They sell Goex black powder at the NSSA, National Matches. Black powder is used in professional fireworks. Before buying it at the matches, I bought it from a professional fireworks supplier. When you find it, buy enough!

 

[RIDE-RED350R]

Guys, I'm curious, do you have any trouble setting off the charge with regular caps on a side lock? With 777?
I've never tried it. Black powder is getting harder to get around here.
David

I had issues with it when I tried it and am happy to have a descent little stash of black on hand again. Just never achieved that instant ignition I always got with black. Delayed ignition, hangfires, and missfires galore for me. No11 or musket caps didn't make a difference.

That said, others have reported good results using T7. So as with many things, YMMV.