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50 or 54

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Stumpkiller said:
Depends on the age of the Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifle. Calibers trended smaller as the years moved on and large game vanished.

When I was a kid everybody knew the early Kentucky's were big because all the old rifles were.
However, this will not stand up to research.
If we look at the rifles captured by the British during the Revolution, comments of the time by people using the rifles and think about the cost of powder and lead and ask the simple question:
"What worked" we come to a different conclusion.

JJ Henry lost his rifle in a river crossing enroute the Quebec with Arnold. He purchased a rifle from a man being sent home for medical reasons. His description indicates it was larger in the bore than the rifle he lost. The replacement rifle used 48 caliber ball.
There is a mint Resor rifle in Steel Canvas that is both pre Rev-War and 42 caliber.
The bonafide, documented battle field caputure "Thomas Rifle" is 47 caliber.
The early Dickert in "Rifles of Colonial America" and "Moravian Gun Making in the American Revolution" is 50 caliber and while used it was returned from England.
Freshing or recutting was common. It was done a great deal. Shield's freshed at least one rifle on the Lewis & Clark Expedition. Based on what I am told by people who have actually done it this adds about 2 calibers to the rifle. Cleanup and uniforming the bore, which generally enlarged at the breech, requires about .010" on a side in most cases. So in a couple of freshings a 42-44 caliber becomes a 46 or 50.
The Western Expansion, crossing the Mississippi and moving out into the plains caused an increase in the bore size. It is documented that calibers under 50 were not nearly as effective due mostly to the ranges involved. Unlike today there were few trees on the plains of Iowa and virtually none of the prairies farther west. No cover. Animals could literally see you coming for miles in some cases. So instead of shooting game at 20 to 80 yards in a relatively windless area they were shooting larger game at ranges often approaching 200 in winds that often blew at near gale force for days. The Wind River and the Wind River Range are not so named from whimsy.

So from surviving rifles, from writings of the time and effectiveness vs cost the 44-50 caliber rifle is a good choice in the east, probably the best compromise.
Were there larger bored rifles? Sure. Some riflemen liked a "ball the size of a Cranberry" if you can determine the size of a Colonial American Cranberry. But I do not believe they were typical. George Hanger, who was a British Officer during the Rev-War stated he never saw one larger than 36 to the pound (.510 ball size) and had seen "many hundreds" and he was a rifleman not just your typical British officer. But he did not see ALL the rifles and there is documentation for larger bores. So his account has some credence. That the people on the frontier were poor tells us that they did not use a firearm that was expensive to shoot.
A 44 caliber rifle will give 55 +- balls to a pound of lead, a Brown Bess Musket about 12-14.
The rifle is suitable for anything the pioneer might want to shoot and is effective on men to 150-200 yards a valid consideration on the Frontier. The 50 caliber is better but reduces the balls per pound to about 40.
54 to 32
62 to 20.
If shooting deer there will be little difference in the 4 calibers. If head shots are used there is no deer to track and ball size becomes even less important.
A man with a 44 caliber ball in the torso will not be very combat effective even if he lives a couple of days.
JJ Henry had 70 balls in his pouch and a pound of powder in his horn by his own account.
70 44 caliber balls is less than a pound and on half. 70 58 caliber balls is over 2 1/2 pounds. Then there is more powder to shoot them.
Going to the Brown Bess the ammunition weight increases to the point that an extra blanket or significantly more food could be carried at the same load for the rifleman. OR a lot less ammo is carried.

Dan
 
Large Or American Cranberry - Oxycoccus Macrocarpus (Aiton) Pursh - Plate 158a
A trailing bog plant with perennial, somewhat woody, slender, creeping stems, rooting at the nodes, the branches 5 to 10 inches long, and ascending, forming dense mats or thickly interwoven with moss and other vegetation of the bog. Leaves alternate, very short petioled, thick, evergreen, oval, oblong or slightly obovate, blunt at both ends, entire, one-fourth to two-thirds of an inch long, one-third of an inch wide or less, pale or glaucous beneath and slightly revolute on the margins. Flowers pink, one-third to one-half of an inch broad, nodding on erect stalks, usually somewhat racemosely clustered. Stamens eight or ten, the filaments distinct, the anthers united into a long-pointed cone, prolonged upward when the flower is opened, and conspicuous as the petals are recurved; anthers opening by a pore at the apex. Fruit a globose or oblong, juicy, red berry, many-seeded and acidulous, one-third to three-fourths of an inch long.

0.33" to 0.75" - looks like we can both fit in that slipper with a lot of room to spare. ;-)

Albrecht and his apprentace Oerter were making .62 caliber rifles in the first Moravian settlements around Christian Springs. That's the start of the American riflemaking regions in PA.

If you have an exampe that is currrently .58 caliber, whether it started or ended as a .58 caliber, it exists as a .58 caliber and was likely used in that caliber.

What went West after King George's line was ignored is happening late in the flint era; 19th century mostly. There is a lot of flintlock rifle history leading up to that.

Apparantly what they later used in Kentucky were likely smaller bores. Don't forget that "Golden Years" or a "Golden Age" are what happen as you're dying out.
 
"If you have an exampe that is currrently .58 caliber, whether it started or ended as a .58 caliber, it exists as a .58 caliber and was likely used in that caliber."

yep good point, and we cannot accurately speculate on how many surviving guns were freshed and how many times,nor can we accuartely speculate on cost/efficienct ratios in the past and their effect on a gun buyers choice, most think that around .50 was a fair avterage in the 1760-90 period with some smaller and some larger, and of course there were no smoothbores as they were useless then as now.
 
Stumpkiller said:
Large Or American Cranberry - Oxycoccus Macrocarpus (Aiton) Pursh - Plate 158a
A trailing bog plant with perennial, somewhat woody, slender, creeping stems, rooting at the nodes, the branches 5 to 10 inches long, and ascending, forming dense mats or thickly interwoven with moss and other vegetation of the bog. Leaves alternate, very short petioled, thick, evergreen, oval, oblong or slightly obovate, blunt at both ends, entire, one-fourth to two-thirds of an inch long, one-third of an inch wide or less, pale or glaucous beneath and slightly revolute on the margins. Flowers pink, one-third to one-half of an inch broad, nodding on erect stalks, usually somewhat racemosely clustered. Stamens eight or ten, the filaments distinct, the anthers united into a long-pointed cone, prolonged upward when the flower is opened, and conspicuous as the petals are recurved; anthers opening by a pore at the apex. Fruit a globose or oblong, juicy, red berry, many-seeded and acidulous, one-third to three-fourths of an inch long.

0.33" to 0.75" - looks like we can both fit in that slipper with a lot of room to spare. ;-)

Albrecht and his apprentace Oerter were making .62 caliber rifles in the first Moravian settlements around Christian Springs. That's the start of the American riflemaking regions in PA.

If you have an exampe that is currrently .58 caliber, whether it started or ended as a .58 caliber, it exists as a .58 caliber and was likely used in that caliber.

What went West after King George's line was ignored is happening late in the flint era; 19th century mostly. There is a lot of flintlock rifle history leading up to that.

Apparantly what they later used in Kentucky were likely smaller bores. Don't forget that "Golden Years" or a "Golden Age" are what happen as you're dying out.
You have DOCUMENTATION of calibers at Christian Springs?
A rifle that was made in 1775 then rebored for shot in 1732 for someones grandson is not what the typical Kentucky of 1775 was.

There is a Oerter in RCA. #44
Marked No. 162 Christ. Oerter. Christ: Springs 1775. Its a 44 Smooth Rifle and may or may not have been smooth originally. Some "smooth rifles" show traces of grooves if bore scoped. But I accept the bore condition as stated.
Then there is #42. Now believed to be a Carolina Moravian rifle of 50 cal rifled.
Edward Marshal Rifle is a 58, now, but it also has a German barrel and the barrel likely was 50+ when it arrived in America given the typical German rifle of the time.
#40 is another Moravian attributed (now) smooth rifle in 57 caliber.

#46 is an Andreas Albrecht that was in use long enough to be converted to percussion. Its .48 rifled.
#48 is a Moravian rifle signed J. Dickert its 50 caliber rifled and was taken to England probably by the end of the Rev-War.
No.s 49 and 50 are Dickerts of 54 and 50 caliber.
51 and 52 are large bore (.64) smooth rifles that may or may not have been smaller bored rifles when made.
The next two 53 and 54 are William Antes in 48 and 51.
#55 Is an Issac Berlin but is likely a post Rev-war rifle in 45 caliber. But this is supposition. Berlin would have been done with his Apprenticeship by 1775-76.
Here is another factor.
In the early 20th century a number of shootable or repairable American rifles were recut or rebored and re rifled for use as shooters. One of
This is documented in Cline's book since he was very active in this.
Cline and I think Dillon as well reported buying flint (IIRC) rifles that were still in use after the turn of the 20th century.
I believe Bill Large recut a lot of original barrels as well.

If someone wantrd to take the time to catalog every rifled original flintlock gun, or those built as flintlocks, in all the books that list caliber they will find a spike at 44 and a spike at 50, calibers above 50 are rare.
I did this some years back before I got a copy of Kindig or RCA. But Kindigs book has a LOT of smooth bores in it.
Also in doing this the researcher is at the mercy of the person who measures or guesses at the bore size.
As time passed and the rifles were recut and the bores became too large for the game they were often bored smooth for shot.
I am told by a good source that at the end of the Civil War there were people making a living with a boring machine in a wagon boring rifle muskets to shotguns. One my Uncles had a Colt that had been bored to about 62 caliber smooth. I am sure some Kentuckies got the same treatment.

But the "the early guns were all large bores" is so prevalent in the thinking that its like trying to derail a train.
Look into the "Indian Rifles in British Service" chapter in DeWitt Bailey's "British Military Flintlock Rifles" you will find a quote from Col John Bradstreet in 1764 that states in part:
...all the Shawnees and Delawar Indians are furnished with Rifle barrel guns...the upper Nations (Great Lakes) are getting into them fast...they will be much less dependent upon us, on account of the great saving of powder, this Gun taking much less, and the shot more certain..."
The trade gun of the time used a ball about .58 to 60. So if there is a great saving in ammunition then I would assume the bore is smaller than this by some considerable amount.
The 1780s indian trade rifles the British were importing because American rifle supplies were cut off due to the revolution were generally 58 caliber it would seem from surviving examples.
But it is thought that most rifles in use by the natives were still American even at this time. But the trade rifles WERE for the natives and more powder and lead used is good, bigger profits. Most of the guns brought in 90% or more, were "traders" or other smooth bores since there was still a reluctance to furnish rifles to the natives. Something that had been actual policy from the 1760s.

BTW some of the rifles shot a ball the size of a pea. The cranberry being the larger size noted. I have no reference for this since it came from a well informed long rifle gunsmith via a phone conversation.

Dan
 
Well heck, my .54 is "Pea" sized if I compare it to a Alderman peas (an early heirloom variety). Now a Lincoln is .40 size . . . but they came later. ;-)

I'll dig. I have to go back through old Muzzleblasts for rifle calibers.
 
have you all forgotten that this post was asking for advise on cals? 50 or 54

i choose the 50, cheaper to shoot, and in most cases lighter than the 54. and my favorite, THE 50 IS JUST AS DEADLY
 
Either cal will fill your needs. If you hunt only deer and target shoot most of the time the 50cal will be more than adequate. In 1972 I built a 54cal Hawken full stock to take on an elk hunt, the 54 made a clean kill at a measured 80 yards. But later took it on a Moose hunt not a good idea took a second shot to win a very dangerous argument. I guess what you might do is consider what game you wish to hunt now and maybe future hunts. If moose hunt is ever in your future I would suggest a 62cal or a small cannon.
 
I still stand by my fifty-four. It's a little more insurance in a hunting situation.
As far as what was more popular in civilian rifles during the day, I'm not sure. But it seems that the early military rifles were larger than the fifty. Examples: the British Ferguson rifle of the Revolutionary war and the Harpers Ferry rifle of the United States as used by Lewis and Clark (both around fifty-four, I believe). I have no documented evidence, but it appears to me that when a manstopper weapon was required on the frontier, which started east and went west, larger calibers were used. As an area became "settled" the larger caliber was not required as the big game became more scarce. And the "pea shooters" were more practical for shooting squirrels and varmints. Not to say that small calibers weren't used during the Revultionary War.
Anyway, todays fifty-four balls aren't much more than the fifies (fifties are more popular at Joe-blows sporting goods) and you won't be carrying them around all day every day for defense/hunting.
 
Hello MB,
There have been alot of good, and interesting, replies to your query. There was alot of discussion on when each caliber would be period correct--there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it was addressing your question. You said your rifle would mainly be used for target work, and maybe some deer hunting. To begin with, either caliber is adequate for deer hunting. With that out of the way, you now have to consider which caliber is best for YOU on the target range. I don't know what type of target shooting you will be doing. Informal plinking out behind your house, if you live in an area where you can do so. A monthly paper match with a muzzleloading club of which you may be a member. A NMLRA territorial match or perhaps a national match. Ringing gongs, knocking over silhouettes, or cutting stakes in half. (Certainly the larger caliber would be better for those last matches). It has been pointed out that the .54 will consume more lead and powder than the .50. However, bear in mind that usually less powder is used in target shooting than in hunting--the target load as oppossed to the hunting load. Another thing to consider is how long you anticipate shooting sessions to be: the time you will be carrying your rfle through the woods on a hunt, how much time you will be spending on the target range. Overall weight of the rifle comes into play here. Among my flintlocks are a .50 and two .54's. One of those .54's is an Early Virginia I ordered from Narragansett Arms some years ago. It has a 44 inch Colerain swamped barrel, which is their C weight. A .50 would use the same barrel: external dimensions are the same, but since it is a smaller bore it would add more weight to the rifle. And as far as a .54 using more lead? Well, I know you can't get away from that. Your source of lead will have to dictate if that will be a major consideration for you. I know I have not provided a full answer to your question. Hopefully I have not muddied the waters anymore, but have instead given you some things to consider in choosing which caliber may be best for YOU.
 
Stumpkiller said:
Well heck, my .54 is "Pea" sized if I compare it to a Alderman peas (an early heirloom variety). Now a Lincoln is .40 size . . . but they came later. ;-)

I'll dig. I have to go back through old Muzzleblasts for rifle calibers.


I hope they have some signed and dated rifling cutters (for example) that dates to Albrecht's time. Cause 20th century speculation is more or less meaningless no matter who wrote it. I think the only known signed A. Albrecht is 47 caliber and the barrel is 1 5/32" at the breech. Shumway dates it to the 1770s. Its in RCA #46 and apparently saw enough use (probably at least 50 years since its been converted to percussion) to have been recut.
Gotta be something pretty definite. We KNOW some rifles were larger. Unless period documentation states that MOST of the rifles were over 50 a few large bore guns simply proves my case.
While the Moravians liked to keep records the stuff I have seen of rifle shop inventories only lists numbers of barrels not the bore size.
Look in "Moravian Gun Making of the American Revolution". For example the jun 1762 inventory mentions "1 8-cornered & one 4-cornered reamers"
No size is listed.
Then in May 1764 we see "15 English Rifle barrels" and locks for them. But no caliber is listed. "4 finished rifles" but no calibers listed.
In fact its rare in the extreme to find a ball size listed.
We have rifles and smooth rifles listed in a trading companies inventory in the 1750s but they only list the smooth rifles, bought through London, as "very small bores". The apparently identical (by the standards of the day) rifled guns have no caliber mentioned.
This is in De Witt Bailey's book on British Miltary Flintlocks.

Dan
 
...i think i can simplify all this discourse and answer your question at the same time... here's the deal... once you get involved in this tradition, it essentially becomes an addiction... that being said, buy whatever caliber you want because if you're like most of us, you will want more... and more... 32, 36, 40, 45, 50, 54, 58, 62, 75, etc.... I started with a 50 and use it the most followed by the 32... lastly, calibers are sort of like car engines - smaller is cheaper... :grin:
 
I still have to say that while a .45 (my most used) is entirely adequate for whitetails & black bear, a .50 is all you need and it will do well on game even larger. Dan makes a very good point with his statement concerning economy of powder and lead. Most shots were generally close, powder & lead "costly" and you could carry more "shots" with you on long treks. If I had to guess I'd say the peak was generally from .40 to .50 with smaller and larger bores in the minority. I can't imagine any situation - east of the Mississippi - that a .50 couldn't handle well.
 
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