.54 Cal Hawken at 100 yards

[roundball]

"...why would you want to load a different charge than what you have proven to be the one your rifle likes best..."

The main answers are that some like flatter trajectories, point blank hunting holds, more energy/power at greater distances, for larger game. Statements get thrown around a lot about a barrel having a most accurate load...with the implication being that any departure from that "most accurate load" suddenly means accuracy somehow dramatically becomes poor and unusable.
But in all my years with PRBs out of a wide variety of rifles, smoothbores, calibers, and gauges I've never found that to be the case and I shoot a lot, and almost always with stout charges.

As real life examples, in PRB accuracy testing 28" and 32" .45/.50/.54cal T/C Flintlocks at the range, they all shot within 1+7/8" to 2+3/4" groups at 100yds benched with 90grns of Goex 3F.
IMO, far more than adequate performance for near max PRB hunting loads.
For me, there's zero benefit that would come from trying to tighten those groups any further with a milder powder charge...a tennis ball at 100yds is a tennis ball at 100yds. And I'd far rather hit that tennis ball at 100yds with more authority than less.

IMO, the counter question is why WOULDN'T anyone want more power to gain additional advantages in the pursuit of taking big game in the most humane manner possible when it's readily available?
The most common reason I keep coming back to is it must be that most people don't like louder noise and greater recoil...nothing else makes sense to me.

Just answering your question...others mileage may vary

 

[Rat Trapper]

Roundball,

In answer to your question: We have too many on here who just have to keep pushin the use of wimp loads. If you are going hunting for big game, use more powder. If you can afford the gas for your truck to get you to the woods, you can afford to use a little more powder!

 

[roundball]

Roundball,
In answer to your question: We have too many on here who just have to keep pushin the use of wimp loads. If you are going hunting for big game, use more powder. If you can afford the gas for your truck to get you to the woods, you can afford to use a little more powder!

If I take one of my $12.00 cans of Goex 3F and assuming my math is correct for 65 and 90grn powder charges out of a can, the per shot costs are 11 cents and 15 cents per powder charge.
The difference in the cost of taking a deer, elk, moose, etc, would only be $.04 cents.

 

[BrownBear]

The difference in the cost of taking a deer, elk, moose, etc, would only be $.04 cents.

It's become a tradition to make large mountains from such small mole hills. Just look at the political news today.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I agree.
Many do worry about cost of powder. A day at the range can get costly but a hunt is only one or two shots.
Recoil and noise are issues, no doubt.
Accuracy is another concern. Generally speaking, faster twists do have a fairly finicky 'sweet spot'. But slower twists are more forgiving. My Jaeger is 1:72 and I doubt any noticable accuracy is lost between my 'sweet spot' charge of 75 gr. bp and a whoomper-stomper 120 grain charge. Just more noise and recoil.

 

[tecum-tha]

How much off your powder comes out the barrel unburned? Barrel length has a lot to do what kind of load is best.
My original 0.65 cal Jaeger shoots fine with 75grains 2F Schuetzen and shoots a .630 ball.
The twist rate is quite fast at 1:36 or so with a 25.5" long barrel. Unless one shoots a very long barrel, 120 grains of powder are simply unnecessary. I doubt a 28" long barrel on a TC makes much of a difference to my 25.5" barrel when it comes to burning powder...
And some guys said I may try to lower my load because of the fast rate of twist. I my try a little less.....

 

[roundball]

You've made 3 major points in your post...could you please explain to us what they mean?

How much off your powder comes out the barrel unburned?

Question #1: Why does that matter?

Barrel length has a lot to do what kind of load is best.

Question #2: Best for what?

Unless one shoots a very long barrel, 120 grains of powder are simply unnecessary.

Question #3: Simply unnecessary for what?


Thanks

 

[tecum-tha]

Why does that matter?
You waste it.

Best for what?
"Accuracy" and "projectile velocity"

Simply unneccesary if you blow half of the powder out of the barrel unburned/ simply unnecessary to kill a deer.

Think about a Brown Bess Service cartridge load:
160 grains of black powder. Quality wise it was probably "Reenactor Powder",when it comes to granulation distribution.
This was used for loading and priming. Some powder was lost biting off the cartridge. People who use this system report to load about 120-130 grain into the barrel of a 75 cal. musket, with a 46" long barrel (Long Land Pattern). Due to the sub-optimal gas seal of the paper cartrigde, a good amount of pressure will be lost.
Now you load a .54 cal with a near optimal gas seal and 28" barrel (for example T/C) with 120 grain of 2F. I bet you'll blow out probably 20-40 grains unburned.
Ask this years scorekeeper at the "Defense of Fort Greenville Shoot". He was sitting under the shooting window to count hits. He said he got showered with unburned powder. So a lot of people are overcharging. These guys were mostly shooting longrifles with 36"+ barrels between 40 and probably 54 cal. My 0.65 Jaeger and a smoothbore were the exception.
I would rather change the granulation of the powder, than going up in grains. Finer powder will burn faster and will give you more pressure spike within the limits of your barrel.The lighter your projectile, the faster it will have left the barrel. After leaving the barrel it won't get any additional acceleration.

What doesn't get burned will not contribute to projectile velocity but will make at least your wallet lighter.

Taking the observation from the "scorekeeper to heart", I will try a 50-60 grain 3F out of my 0.65 cal with the 25.5" barrel and will see what kind of difference I see in POI compared to 75 grain 2F.

 

[BrownBear]

Taking the observation from the "scorekeeper to heart", I will try a 50-60 grain 3F out of my 0.65 cal with the 25.5" barrel and will see what kind of difference I see in POI compared to 75 grain 2F.

After those shots, try one more test. Shoot it with 120-150 grains of 2f and compare trajectories. It's going to shoot LOTS flatter.

I finally figured out the physics behind it. All that "unburned" powder squirting out past the ball actually creates a vacuum that sucks the ball along faster, so it shoots flatter. :rotf:

 

[roundball]

There was a post during the past week or so to the effect that "anything over 90grns powder is wasted because its blown out of the bore and adds nothing to ballistics".

Now I'll be the first to admit when I was starting out there was a lot more that I "didn't" know than what I "did" know. And years ago I began to sense some things like that just didn't sound right and when my instincts started tugging at me I decided it was time to buy myself a chronograph. The result was that many statements / old wives tales have been shot down in just a matter of a few trips to the range.

Stuff like that gets posted every week as if its cast in stone by Moses himself. And if I've learned anything from Internet Forum dynamics it's that my style is not to say anything as an absolute unless I've personally seen it, done it, experienced it, etc.



Sure be glad when hunting season gets here...only 8 weeks until the normal Labor Day Dove opener kicks off fall hunting seasons...LOL

 

[necchi]

Yes, and there can be problems with some "Personal" obsevations made by anyone.
A person with a goal in mind can tend to look at data in a single minded manner so they can draw a personal conclusion, that is observed only by that person.
The best tests are those that are done or observed by groups of people, or at least one other person to "witness".

I'm always suspect of individual observations that tend to be much different than or exceedingly better than the experiance of those in a collective group.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Ask this years scorekeeper at the "Defense of Fort Greenville Shoot". He was sitting under the shooting window to count hits. He said he got showered with unburned powder.

How did he know it was unburned powder? Did he collect and test it?
What he got showered with could very well have been burned bp detrius.

 

[roundball]

A person with a goal in mind can tend to look at data in a single minded manner so they can draw a personal conclusion, that is observed only by that person.

And the flip side of that bizarre, extreme consideration you mentioned is that ANY fact based test is light years more reliable than any anecdotal declarations and old wives tales.

In my post you're referencing, if you're one of those who believes that no change in ballistics occurs from powder charges in excess of 90grns, more power to you...I have no dedicated goal to educate you or anyone else.

More importantly, I simply share facts as "I" experience them...not asking for agreement / disagreement, etc. If you or anyone can use anything to your benefit, fine...and if not that's fine to...I personally couldn't care less and won't lose a moments sleep over it one way or another.

For me, a Pact Pro chronograph records and displays the facts, which I then print out, whether I'm the only one looking at it or there's a 100 witnesses standing over my shoulder looking at it too.

So the ball's in your court...your self imposed challenge is to now go run your own chronograph tests with 100 witnesses and report back to us.

:thumbsup:

 

[necchi]

I challenged nothing,
I made a statement.
I'm not asking for agreement of disageement either.
More powder equals more speed, don't need a chronograph to state or prove the obvious.
I use my chrono for CF where it matters,

Anyone can sque data.

 

[AllenHawken]

Original Poster here.

Thanks for all the advice and lively discussion.

I went to the Clark Brothers range on Sunday and set up a target at 100 yards.

Increased my FFg black powder load to 70gr and raised my aim point to the top of the paper sighting target, 10 inches above the bulls eye.

Shot 8 lead round balls (.535" diameter) with .018" pre-lubed pillow ticking patches.

Result was a 5-inch group centered 2 inches above the bulls-eye. Whoever said I would get an 8-inch drop got it right.

Tomorrow (4th of July) I plan to go to the range again and adjust my rear sight elevation to zero my aim point on the bulls eye at 100 yards using the same 70gr load.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I agree. Changes change things. Obvious.
I have read posts many times on other ml forums that adding, or subtracting 5 grains from a charge will not affect velocity or drop. Ridikilous. If five grains does not change anything then adding another five grains, meaning making a ten grain change won't change anything either. Makes no sense.
In my post referring to the famous Hawken match at Friendship, the example of a winning load was 137 grains. 137, not an even 135 or 140, but 137. To me, that shows the shooter did a lot of testing and practice and his results proved, for him, to be best with that, somewhat unusual, charge.

 

[tecum-tha]

In every enclosed shooting range, the area in front of the shooters have to be swept clean after a shooting session with broom and pan. The reason is the possible accumulation of unburned powder being blown out during the shot. This is a potential fire hazard and thus the range captain has to sign off about the clean up.

Just be sure your barrel is really made up to take those high loads.

This is a link to the proof-loads of german proof houses: http://rsengineering.de/Bogentest/german proof firing loads.html?_cache=1341441069

For a .54 cal, the maximum service load is 138 grains BP.

Now, this proof load may exceed the C.I.P. standards, to which a lot of other european arms are tested. Pedersoli states 30% over "standard" cartridge and the italian proof house states 25% more.

They also state maximum loads at their website under support. This is the maximum service load.
Now I could care less what one loads into his barrel, but just loading a big amount of powder doesn't make it shoot like a CF rifle....
Optimum effective load is when all powder burns inside the barrel and no unburned powder gets thrown out.
The tighter your patch and ball combination, the more resistance the powder has to overcome to move the PRB. The heavier the ball, the longer this will take. But this will also create higher pressure in your breech area. If your barrel can take that over an extended period of time is your task to decide.

@Brown Bear:
This 25.5" long antique barrel was proof fired with 150 grain 3F Swiss. I will definetely not shoot 150grains 2F out of it. This barrel is simply too short for those loads. I will see how much unburned powder it spits out with the 2F load compared to the 3F load. Gun starts to "crack" with 75 grains 3F Swiss I loaded for a few shots to empty the powderhorn.

 

[jerrywh]

Go to 75 grs, and it should hit right on.

 

[gearheart]

Having swept it up have you tried to ignite it? It is most likely soot.

 

[tecum-tha]

Yes, we tried to burn it once and it was BP. It burned slightly slower than BP considering that there was other dirt mixed in....
An advantage for the longer barrels were more time for the powder to burn and accelerate the projectile and maybe the possibility to shoot a slightly bigger load.
Pedersoli maximum loads never exceed 120 grains and this is for a Gibbs rifle. How much more powder will give you 25% pressure,I can't tell you. But with these loads you're exceeding maximum service loads for quite a few manufacturers who test to these standards.
I have yet to get the paperwork from a deer complaining about beeing shot with a 75 or 80 grain load from a 50 cal. rifle,which is about 1.5 times the caliber in grains.