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54 Cal Round Ball Penetration Test

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Interesting thread. I'm deer hunting with a .530 PRB in front of 90gr of FF for the first time this season. The info here has given me more confidence in my load. Will report back my results if I actually get lucky enough to get a deer before our muzzle loader season ends. :wink:
 
BrownBear,

I didn't answer one question...

That bullet is up at my deer camp right now, so I cannot re-weigh it, but I did weigh it back when I first recovered it and the weight loss was nil....maybe a few grains, IIRC, no more than 10gr out of the 278gr ball weight. SAme conclusion as 40flint says.

I agree with you, retained weight is definitely important to penetration. From what I have read, big lead bullets do not lose much weight possibly unless they are conicals designed to expand like modern bullets or hit major bones and shear. But a big conical does not have a big problem with losing some weight.

About having the edges curl back more.....If a ball strikes at even higher velocity than this one did, I expect you will see more edge curl.....essentially there is more lead-mass (and momentum) in the center of the deformed ball than the edges of the ball so as the lead continues to plastically deform (with enough extra residual velocity to keep penetrating more than this one did, and therefore with continued high pressure distributed over the "nose" of the flattened ball) the outer edge tends to slow sooner than the centermass, hence the tendency to curl.

On this ball, the edges are slightly curled. It went about 12-14" thru pure backstrap meat (manure, I guess I needed to tell you that...it was drizzly and the flinter hungfire long enough for me to pull it high on an extreme rear quartering shot....destroyed half of one backstrap, crossed to the other and destroyed half of it and came to rest in the front shoulder...no bones of any consequence were hit. I was not proud of the shot. :( )


YHS,
rogerw
 
According to a ballistic program, 2120fps and .40cal ball at the muzzle gave 1708fps striking velocity at 30yds. I would expect that you had much more "curl" at the edges of your ball than depicted in any of the pictures I posted.

Incidentaly, I think it is typical that a pure lead ball striking fast enough will expand to about 1.5 x caliber before it curls back and gains no further diameter.

You can see in the pic I posted that my .58 ball expanded to about .9" or about 1.5xcaliber.

YHS,
rawdog
 
Your experiences with weight retension, as well as with the edge curl, pretty well reflect what I've seen in dry newspaper test media, in the one ball I've recovered, in one conical (370 grain TC maxi) recovered by a friend, and what I've been able to "infer" from a number of wound channels.

Still not enough data to prove anything, but in broad terms I don't see much weight loss in RBs until the substrate or velocity starts to curl the edges back. At that point it appears the lead is starting to be wiped or swiped off the front face of the ball. Basically it gets so thin at the edge that as it curls pieces start to come off. The exception appears to be larger chunks that get torn off in bone.

Way too many imponderables though. Two years ago I helped three friends in a 5-hour track job on a good buck. The shooter said it looked like a good shot, but the buck kept going like the energizer bunny. When we finally got him we found the shot had broken the front leg and ripped across the front of the brisket cutting rib bones and not entering the chest. Pretty wierd because I saw the shot, and the buck was 40-50 yards out and sure looked broadside from where I was standing. Without the dusting of snow here and there, we NEVER would have found that buck (about 2 miles away). A tracking job to make us all proud.

The interesting part happened midway through the track job when one of our party went back to ground zero for a better look. He found the RB sitting on top of the ground! It was flattened about 50%, but asymetrical with most of the expansion a "smear" across one side. Commercial Hornady .490 ball on top of 80 grains of 3f, BTW. By all reconstruction we could manage, including a close look at that broken leg bone, the bullet had struck the forward side of the bone and perhaps veered slightly to slide across the brisket rather than penetrating.

Like I said, lots of imponderables!
 
Good point BrownBear, I have never thought of it. The plastically flowing lead is also work-hardening and becoming somewhat more brittle as it flows out radially to the edge, which enhances your point.


The tracking/recoveredball story is fascinating. reminds me of stories about arrow points (especially mechanicals) skittering off when shot at a quartering angle.


YHS,
rawdog
 
rawdog said:
......reminds me of stories about arrow points (especially mechanicals) skittering off when shot at a quartering angle.

The imponderable part for us is whether or not the deer was actually 100% broadside, or just looked that way. The other question is whether (or how far) the near foreleg was shifted forward. Did the ball actually veer, or did the small details in deer position relative to trajectory just make it look that way?

Based on the fact that the ball hit the front side of the bone and was smeared on one side makes us think that it did veer a little. But no way to know for sure. I can say for sure that I'm now placing my shots to avoid that leg bone.
 
Reading all this has renewed my faith in my Muzzle loaders pushing PRB "I'm only using a .495 Cast ball in my .50 calibers" & when I get me a Flinter I'm going for the .54 caliber for the slight advantage of larger bore that may offset the slight lesser velocity of the Flintlock system.

My CVA Bobcat w/ 1:48 seems to like the 182gr. .495 PRB with 80gr. FFFG Goex compared to the 320gr. .515 Lee REAL bullet under 70gr. FFFG Goex in accuracy & I'm sure that my new Lyman Trade Rifle will have a similar appetite.

I am right in my assumption that a Flintlock will have a slightly lesser velocity than a comparable Caplock rifle of the same caliber?
 
In same year had 2 shots deflected by the rib cage. Opening WE after a doe and small buck spooked, the buck came back tracking the doe. He froze up about 40 yards out quartering to me but head turned looking at me. Put the .40 on the point of the shoulder and made a good shot. 9 hours and several hundred yards later, we gave up. Actually found a scrape with blood in it.

A month later, hit another buck quartering toward me w/ 150 gr Nosler from .30-06 at about 125 yards. Buck ran and held up for a follow up shot.

Found the first shot w/ the 06 slid down the rib cage breaking several ribs, glanced off the rear leg and exited the opposite side. Located an intact rib cage/vertabrae from previous year (cape had been removed for a mount). Hung the bare rib cage and determined the ribs act as guard rails on side of the road deflecting quartering shots (and antler points?).

TC
 
Raider2000 said:
I am right in my assumption that a Flintlock will have a slightly lesser velocity than a comparable Caplock rifle of the same caliber?

Yeah, but only you and the gun will notice the difference. There's not enough to make any difference on deer from what I've seen. Small jumps in powder charge usually make a bigger difference than changes from cap to flint or back, and those certainly don't mean a lot to game.

While I have nothing to base it on other than prejudice, I do agree with the impulse for a 54 over a 50. That's not saying the 50 won't do a good job or necessarily that a 54 will do a better job either. It's just that I LIKE bigger bores for game. I started out with a 54, then picked up a 50. The 50 never could replace the 54 as my main deer rifle, even though they're otherwise identical. Since I picked up a couple of 58's I haven't even fired either of my 54's. And I supsect if I got a 62 or a 69 my 58's would start to gather dust. I've been hunting lately with the 50 as a "sentiment" thing, but it sure feels puny in the back of my mind. Nothing could be further from the truth, but that's me.
 
If you the same powder charge in a flinter that you use in a percussion gun of equal caliber, YES, you will see a slight drop in velocity. But, there is no reason to not add a couple of more grains, as needed, to bring the velocity up to the same speed you get from that percussion gun.

I had a percussion .50 that I had converted to Flint. My target load with the gun in its percussion format was 60 grains of FFg. That was good for accurate shooting out to 50 yards. When I converned the gun to flint, I had to raise that powder charge to 65 grains to get the same POI on the 50 yard targets. It was only years later that I bought my first chronograph, and tested the two different loads to find out what the difference in velocity was. It wasn't much, but I have long ago forgotten the exact numbers.
 
Quote--- "a Flintlock will have a slightly lesser velocity than a comparable Caplock rifle of the same caliber?"

This makes absolutely no sense to me. The ignition type has NO affect on velocity of the same exact projectile behind the same exact charge in a barrel.
 
Assuming that you put the same powder charge in the guns, the vent in a flintlock is going to bleed off some of the chamber pressure, and lower the velocity you get from that powder charge, compared to the velocity you get from a percussion.

Does that make sense to you now?

If Not, why not chronograph the loads? We have chronographs now, where I did not have available to chronograph when I first converted my rifle, and had to make this determination solely on the change in POI on the target. We are talking about a 10% decrease in velocity using FFg. I believe the decrease using FFFg powder is going to be more- closer to 15%, but I have not run tests with that powder using a chronograph. The difference relates to the rate of burning of the two powders, vs. the time it takes to overcome the inertia of a PRB and begin moving the ball down the barrel. You get higher velocity using FFFg vs. FFFg powder in your gun, using the same ball/patch combination, and the same powder charges. but in a flintlock, the FFFg powder seems to bleed off chamber pressure faster, too.

In my .50 caliber, we are talking the difference between adding 6 grains of powder using FFg, vs. 19 grains of powder using FFFg. I hardly think this is much to be arguing about. Since I have found that using an OP wad increases the velocity with both FFg and FFFg, and results in more complete burning of the FFg powder, even in my flintlock, there is Much " TWEAKING" that can be done to get the maximum benefit from any powder charge, regardless of which size granule you choose, or whether you shoot flint, or percussion.
 
Thanx Paul, I thought there would be a slight difference in velocity between a identicle Flintlock & Caplock rifle just wasn't sure & like I said when I do get my Flint Kit I'll more than likely opt for a .54 cal. to offset the slight difference by having a slightly larger & heavier ball going down range
 
Think seriously about what you want to do as far as picking calibers. A .54 pushes a 230 grain RB downrange. A .50 pushes only a 180 grain ball. The 50 grains of lead amounts to a lot of weight to carry to the range for practice, and even more weight to tote when hunting.

Are you hunting where you are likely to take LONG shots? By long, are you likely to be shooting deer at over 60 yrds because you can't get closer? If so, then maybe the .54 is a good choice. Are you going to be hunting game larger than big whitetails? Like Elk? Moose? Caribou? If so, then maybe the .54 is the way to go.

However, if your shots are going to be close, even on the larger game species, a .50 will do the job as well, with complete penetration on broadside shots the norm inside 75 yards. More importantly, with the lighter lead balls, you are more likely to practice more. And there are plenty of lighter powder charges you can use to practice with using a .50, where everything about that .54 is BIGGER, including powder charges.

I hunt with a .50 caliber full stock, Poor Boy style rifle with a 39 inch barrel. Flint, of course. I hunt is some of the brushiest, tangled wood bottoms you can find, because around here, that is where the deer are to be found. Oh, they sneak out into the corn fields during the summers, and feed at the edges of the corn fields before dawn, but they know when shooting time arrives better than most people wearing watches, I swear! They are back in the brush and trees, heading to bedding areas that are next to impossible to sneak up on. We intercept them between the feeding and bedding areas. Sometimes we get lucky when another hunter shows up late, or has St. Vitus Dance, and just has to walk about the woods, spooking deer out of their beds and moving them past us. My point is that I can't usually see a deer past 50 yards where I hunt, and most of my kills have been shots under 40 yards. The shortest was at 2 yards.

Be sure you really NEED a .54 caliber rifle before you make that choice. If you don't understand how a pure lead ball kills, or have been reading or listening to those jerks who say that a RB just bounces off a deer( Big news to Daniel Boone!)to justify using jacketed pistol bullets shot out of plastic shoes, using modern smokeless powders at high velocities, and claiming such will kill deer out to 200 yds, if your scope sight is big enough, then you need to spend some time doing penetration testing for comparison in any medium of your choice.

If you intend to use a scope, and don't have a medical reason for doing so, I have to ask you if you are really interested in hunting with any traditional firearm, or are you just trying to have another extra season for hunting?? IMHO, a scope sight on a flintlock is like an elevator in an outhouse- it just doesn't fit!( Yeah, I borrowed that line from "Roadhouse".) Ifon the other hand, a scope is the only way you get to hunt a few more years with bad eyes due to old age, Put the scope on the gun!

If you are going to use a traditional rifle, in flintlock no less, you should be expecting to finally learn- if you never have before-- how to shoot open sights and shoot them accurately. But, in doing so, you are going to find that these sights will also be a limiting factor on how far a target you can hit accurately. A 150 yd shot is a very long shot with open sights. Even a 100 yd shot is a long shot at most deer with open sights.

What we all found is that the RB happens to penetrate more than adequately out to 100 yds, our longest shot, and expands at BP velocities to kill deer very nicely, and as quickly as they die when shot with high power cartridge guns at longer and shorter ranges.

I will not lie to you about the fact that on some occasion, you are going to look across a field and see a fine deer a couple of hundred yards away. It may be on property you have permission to hunt, or it may not. You are going to have to enjoy the sight, but pass on trying a shot. If instead of that Traditional Flintlock .54 rifle, you had a 7mm Super Duper Magnum with a 24x scope dialed in a 500 yds., you might end your hunt right then and there with a clean shot on that distant deer-- If you read the distance right, and the wind right, and if there isn't any twig, or stick, or sapling that is " invisible ", even through your scope at that kind of range, between you and that deer, that will deflect your bullet.

A man showed me where he stood to kill a deer on the next ridge the year before with a modern shotgun using Foster Style rifled slugs, and no rear sight on the shotgun. The distance was close to 175 yards. He said his slug hit the deer in the neck, and broke its spine, to drop it in its tracks. He had been "aiming " for its lungs. He had NO idea how far that next ridge was from us, and he wanted my estimation as to the range. He did know that his kill was one of the luckiest shots he had ever taken!

So, "Luck " happens, even to people who haven't earned it! I don't know about you, but " MURPHY "- of MURPHY'S LAW Fame-- pretty much lives in my back pocket. Consequently, I don't tempt him with long shots.

This is why its called " Hunting", and not " Getting ". NO? :hmm:
 
Some very good & Valid points some of which I really didn't give much thought to.

As far as scopes go, NO.
To me a muzzle loader has no reason to have any scopes on them unless you are shooting for those long range targets at the range with one other wise the sights that are normally found on one that is fashioned after or reminiscent of rifle sights during the 18th & 19th century is ample for me, I too do not see deer much past 50 yards with only a cupple shot past 65 yards in the 27 years of me shooting Black Powder.

As far as what a .495 ball can do, I've taken enough deer in the past to know that it is a reliable projectile to take an animal at respectable ranges, my thoughts of maybe a .54 caliber is in part that I've always wanted one & also a Flinter & in thinking of the slight lesser velocity of a Flinter may be beneficial to that possible 70 yard shot.

One day I may hunt Elk again but who knows when that may be but like you said a .50 caliber can do a respectable job within resonable distances.

Thank you for your input & I will deffinitly give it some thought before I lay my money down on a .54 caliber.
 
Actually, you can send .50 caliber balls down much faster, even out of a flintlock, at velocities where you can still tolerate the recoil, as compared to what you can tolerate shooting the heavier .54 cal. balls. You are NOT loading modern cartridges. You can put as much powder in that barrel as you wish. That is how greater velocity was achieved( with longer barrels to burn the powder in).
 
You wrote "If you don't understand how a pure lead ball kills, or have been reading or listening to those jerks who say that a RB just bounces off a deer (Big news to Daniel Boone) to justify using jacketed pistol bullets shot out of plastic shoes, using modern smokeless powders at high velocities, and claiming such will kill deer out to 200 yds, if your scope sight is big enough, then you need to spend time doing penetration testing for comparison in any medium of your choice."

Being as I am the only person I know who described a roundball bouncing off a buck deer's neck, you are insulting me. (For those who don't know, look in the Traditional Muzzleloading Hunting forum under "Neck Shooters" for my description of what happened). V., I can appreciate you don't believe this event happened as I described it. Why don't you just call me a liar and stop beating around the bush? You, of course, know everything that could possibly happen with a roundball.

Never did I suggest that a roundball was inadequate for killing deer. Never did I speak of modern muzzleloading firearms. I suggest you take your tar brush and stuff it where it will do you the most good. I am sick of your sarcasm.
 
Actually, Herb, I was referring to the Toby Bridges of the world( You know, the guys promoting Zip Guns" by telling Game Commissions that allowign hunters to shoot deer with lead round balls is "Inhumane").

I never gave your story a passing thought. I don't doubt what you said happened, did happen :thumbsup: . I had a .50 cal. RB bounce of the right front shoulder of a spike buck I shot at about 5 yards from a treestand one year, but I can tell you that the main charge did not completely burn, and all the evidence indicates that it took on moisture during the long day I was in the field. I don't have an explanation for what happened in your case.

It always depends on the observations of the shooter, and that often depends entirely on his past experiences, and knowledge about his guns, loads, how loads change, etc. If he doesn't hear what I hear, or doesn't understand what certain debris and residue in his gun should tell him, as it tells me, from experience, you are not going to get the information from that shooter you need to tell him definitively what happened in his case. It just becomes an " unsolved " incident.

So, I was not thinking or talking about you, and I was not, NOR AM I calling you a liar. I hope that helps you get past this snit. Sorry if you are now disappointed. That is some chip you have on your shoulders. You might want to try to give it a rest.
 
Raider2000 said:
Reading all this has renewed my faith in my Muzzle loaders pushing PRB "I'm only using a .495 Cast ball in my .50 calibers" & when I get me a Flinter I'm going for the .54 caliber for the slight advantage of larger bore that may offset the slight lesser velocity of the Flintlock system.

My CVA Bobcat w/ 1:48 seems to like the 182gr. .495 PRB with 80gr. FFFG Goex compared to the 320gr. .515 Lee REAL bullet under 70gr. FFFG Goex in accuracy & I'm sure that my new Lyman Trade Rifle will have a similar appetite.

I am right in my assumption that a Flintlock will have a slightly lesser velocity than a comparable Caplock rifle of the same caliber?

You can drive that .54 caliber ball fast enough to overcome the small loss through the vent by loading up a little. And the extra 50 grains of lead in that .54 caliber ball compared to the .50 makes a noticeable difference on a deer. The .54 can be driven at the same velocity as the .50 if you want and retained energy down range is higher. The extra weight of the .54 balls shouldn't be a problem. When you go to the range, you carry everything in a range box and shoot or at least load at a bench so the weight difference isn't relevant. I seldom carry more than 12 or 15 balls and often fewer when hunting so the small weight difference isn't a factor here either. I just checked my hunting bag and there are eleven balls in it. If I can't get my deer with eleven half ounce plus balls I don't belong in the woods anyway. The whole weight carrying thing doesn't really amount to much as far as I can see. But a .54 caliber ball at 1750 f.p.s. will have over 300 foot pounds more energy than the .50 does at the same velocity. That's more than a 25% increase and that's reason enough for me to stay with my .54. :v
 
I know nothing of Tony Bridges or modern muzzleloaders. I remember your skepticism of what I described happening, and if it had not happened to me, I'd have trouble believing it, too. But it did happen. Thus my vigorous defense of what seemed to be an attack on me. Since you say it is not, my apologies to you. Still, I do not like your sarcasm, nor anyone else's, for that matter.

And this is not an "unsolved" incident. That ball hit a massive muscle after penetrating through the tough neck hide of a mule deer buck and that muscle caught it like a catcher's mitt catching a baseball. I did not know that happened until I got the same buck, which I killed with the next roundball a few hours later, home to skin out.

I went back to that spot last Saturday, found another mulie buck on that same hillside, found my flagging where I shot from, the little gravel ridge opening in the heavy sagebrush which the buck and doe were walking up, but I could not find that spent ball. I believe I'll find it (with a metal detector) in a strip about 10 feet long by maybe two feet wide. I doubt that ball bounced farther than that. When I do find it, I'll post a photo on here so others can compare it to balls deformed at various striking velocities. I again paced the distance, and it is 90 yards, though it is hard to pace through heavy sagebrush. I'll even tape measure that when I get my friends with their metal detector to help me.
 
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