.54 shooters with a chronograph

[drwhip]

I've almost finished my Hawken .54 and I'll be working up some loads for it. Barrel is 34", 1 1/8 across the flats so she'll handle stout loads. I'm wondering about top velocity I can get out of this rifle. With 120 to 140 grains of ffg and Irish linen patch over powder and one around the ball, is it realistic to think I can get 1900 fps out of her? Has anyone out there put any similar loads through a chrono and got some numbers? Or does anyone know of any tables that would list velocity for these loads? I want to have a nice stiff load in her as my main quarry will be Wapiti and they can absorb some lead. Also interested to know what caliber and load any other elk hunters are using. Thanks.
Regards, Bearman

 

[OTHERN]

It's all in shot placement, rather than speed. I use 80grains of ff in my 50 with patched round ball and 90 grains of ff in my 54 with patched round ball. Shove it in there lungs and they go 50 to 100 yds and fall over. Over 20 Elk can't be wrong.

 

[OTHERN]

Oyea I forgot both cronograph around 1750 fps.

 

Check out Lyman's old blackpowder loading manual if you can find one. It has chrono data for several different loads and calibers (incl .54). I agree with the above that you don't need to max out velocities--accuracy is more important. Probably don't need to exceed 90-100 grs ffg.

 

[cayugad]

It would be interesting to see the read outs on some different loads out of the .54 caliber. I just got a Lyman Trade Rifle and I shoot 100 grains of Goex 2f with a .530 patched roundball. I agree that shot placement is the key, but I guess everyone likes to know how fast this thing shoots!!

 

[drwhip]

Yep, I've gotta agree with you on the shot placement being of utmost importance. I've yet to see a critter go far with a hole in both lungs. Have seen 'em travel with only one lung gone, so I won't take marginal shots. Reason I'm looking for top velocity is to maybe pick up a few more yards of applicable range, but if you're getting 1750 out of that charge than that's great and I'll try the lighter powder charge first. Bottom line, this is a whole lot of fun and that's why we all do it. Tinkerin' can't be beat with these smokepoles! Thanks for the reply. Regards, Bearman

 

[LeeRoy87]

I don't have a chronograph but my best friend does. Out of a .54 Green Mountain RB barrel in a 1970s-vintage T/C Renegade stock, the barrel 32", 1:70, w/.535 Speer ball, .015 Irish linen patch, Dixie Old Zip Patch Grease, 120 grs. GoEx FFg, CCI #11 cap, this load at an outside temperature of 56F yielded a three-round average of 1908 fps., swabbing (but not thoroughly cleaning) between rounds. Same ball, patch and charge, but with other lubes, yielded slightly slower velocities, in the vicinity of 1895 fps., and somewhat reduced accuracy, suggesting the Old Zip lube is a critical part of the load. (The 1908 fps load is by the way the accuracy load in this barrel, grouping two inches or slightly less from the bench at 100 yards, and on one absolutely-windless day shooting a 100-yard cloverleaf.) Never killed anything with it, as firearm hunting is now so restricted in Washington state it's no longer worth the bother, but I'm sure it would get the job done.

 

[cayugad]

OldGrayWolf.. that size charge and that kind of accuracy could get the job done on a whole lot of things. I have a .58 caliber Green Mountain Barrel with 1:70 twist and I shoot a .570 ball, 100 grains of Goex 2f and lubed .018 patch. The accuracy from that rifle is really hard to believe.

This last summer the best I shot was a 2" group off a bench at 100 yards with the open sights. I was more then pleased. I think with some load tinkering I could make it do better. I really do not know how hard a person can safely push a Green Mountain Barrel. When I talked to the people at the company about loads, they always discussed what they thought was the best load for the rifle, never the limit of the barrel....

 

[LeeRoy87]

I use a T/C peep sight with Green Mountain's issue front sight. If I used open sights, with my aged eyes (65 the end of this month), the benchrested groups would run around four inches at least, probably even bigger.

But what I'm most impressed by is that Old Zip lube: been usin' it for 16 years now. It's not only the best (most accurate/highest velocity) patch lube I've ever found, it's also the best chamber lube I've ever found for cap-and-ball revolvers, and the best Minie-ball lube too. Haven't bought any for several years -- my last purchase was a dozen tins -- but I think Dixie still sells it.

For my RB rifle, I melt the Old Zip and dip several Irish linen strips in it, let the saturated linen cool, roll up the greased linen like a bandage and stash a few rolls in my rifle bag, then trim the patches to fit as I shoot. One strip yields about 15 rounds of patches. I got a huge batch of these strips from an ML dealer years ago; I think the strips originally came from October Country.

Hope this info is useful...

 

[cayugad]

I personally use Stumpkiller's Moose Milk recipe as my patch lube and 100% cotton Pillow Tick blue stripe that I buy from Wal Mart. A friend told me it mics around .015-.018 for thickness. I also cut at the muzzle. I have tried a lot of different lubes and I think I will stick with this one. The accuracy is outstanding with the lube, and the patches are in excellent condition after being shot.

I have a T/C Renegade with a peep sight and you're right, the accuracy from them is outstanding. I still have the same sights that came with the Green Mountain Barrel. They seem to work real good.

Enjoy shooting.... :thumbsup:

 

[Darkhorse]

Bearman, I think you should follow Mike Roberts advice and get that old Lyman manual and look it over closely.

Personally with Elk, I want the highest inital velocity I can get out of a roundball. Just enough killing power is not enough in my opinion. The main reason I want the velocity is that you never know how far away that big bull is going to be. With whitetails and thick cover and you can only see 60 yards you pretty well know a moderate load will be fine. But in Elk country that moderate load may bounce to the target. And if that bull is at the limit of my accurate range I want enough retained velocity to get the job done as well at 110 yard as at 50. Others math may differ but I like the taste of Elk meat.

Also, I've stopped using 2FG for my hunting loads. I now use 3FG. Reasons being more velocity, flatter trajectory and less recoil. I can live with the added pressure.
Last year while working up loads in a .54 38" barrel for Elk I shot benchrest groups with both 110 grs of 2FG and 80 grs of 3FG. The 3FG load shot 6" flatter at 100 yards and kicked a lot less. Thats as far as testing Elk loads in that rifle went, not drawing a ML tag stopped it.
Blackpowder creates a lot of solid waste when it burns, unlike smokeless powder. This waste adds to the weight of your projectile. Of course you lose this benefit after the charge exits the barrel, but in the barrel your pushing a heavier charge, which means increased recoil and lesser velocity. And since 3F burns cleaner and there is less to start with, then recoil can be reduced while velocity is increased.
Of course most won't agree with this and for a fact for over 20 years you couldn't convince me either I was a dedicated 2F shooter. But fortunately we get to choose what works best for us.

 

[LeeRoy87]

Darkhorse, you're absolutely right about FFFg; the ballistics tables that make up most of the pages in that old Lyman book you mentioned bear you out, as does my own experience. My preference for FFg comes entirely from economy and convenience: mainly the fact I also use it in my shotgun.

 

[drwhip]

Well, well, well....You got me to scratchin' my chin and thinking and I remembered buying that black powder manual back when I was in high school. Went down in the basement and, lo and behold, it was in a box with a bunch of old Buckskin Report issues from the 70's. It were right under my nose! You're right! They did all there testing with fffg, not ffg. I remember Sam Fadala writing a piece, years ago, that said he used ffg to keep pressures down so that's what I used. But I'll go for more velocity and less recoil any day of the week! My barrel is Green Mountain, 1 in 66, and 1 1/8 across the flats so the slight pressure increase shouldn't be a problem. Here's what the manual says about .535 PRB out of a 30" barrel:
charge velocity pressure muzzle energy energy 100yd
90 1546 7,800lup 1166 470
100 1639 10,440lup 1310 506
110 1731 13,080cup 1462 541
120 1826 13,330cup 1627 589
130 1920 13,580cup 1798 642
140 1972 13,700cup 1897 679
150 2024 13,820cup 1998 712

Patch on the above loads measured .015, lube was crisco, powder 3f Goex. So there you have it. I do believe I'll do some experimenting of my own with Stumpy's lubes and Irish linen and see what happens. Might even have to buy a chronograph (Hey ma, I need a new toy!) to get some numbers of my own. They're fairly affordable these days. First I've got to get this shootin' iron finished up then I'll head to the range. I thank you guys for responding and reminding me of that manual. :thumbsup: Regards, Bearman
PS Sorry couldn't figure out how to get the data to line up correctly, but I think you'll figure it out

 

[Darkhorse]

Keep this in mind also, that old book never tells you what the safe limits are in CUP (copper units of pressure). And to further confuse the issue they tell you LUP and CUP are not readily comparable to PSI.
Notice a lot of Manufacturers give thier safe max loads in PSI, so in a sense a lot of the Lyman data can't readily be applied.
Which caused me to ask a major custom barrel manufacturer a couple of years ago (he shall remain unnamed) how to run a pressure test. I know how to test for pressure in a centerfire, but not in a muzzleloader. His reply was that there is really no way to do so. And that they had once tried to blow a barrel up by charging it incrementally with increasing loads of 3FG, after awhile they quit trying. They never did blow it up.
Personally I use the Lyman data as a guideline only since so much is unknown. Including the quality of the powder they used in the original testing.
I also think more Muzzleloaders have been blown up by a ball not all the way down on the powder than have ever been blown up by overcharging.
30 years ago when I first started hunting with a ML I had (still have it too) a .54 TC Renegade. I shot at a buck and hit a vine and the buck just stood there. In my youth and excitement I hurried and didn't weigh my next shot, instead I just poured what seemed like enough powder down the bore with the horn. When I tried to seat the ball it only went halfway down. Probably had a 1/4 lb of 2FG in that barrel. I laid it on a blanket and put sandbags behind the stock and pulled the trigger with a string. It knocked the sandbags away and slip across the ground and slammed into the front tire of my truck, which I was hiding behind. By all rights that barrel should have blown. Instead 30 years later I still shoot it occasionally and it has had many many rounds shot through it.
Oh well, so much for the foolishness of youth. At the time I didn't even know what a ball puller was.

 

[drwhip]

Darkhorse,
That little stunt probably put a nice "character" ding in that stock of yours! Yeah, I thought of that too and I value my hide too much to get carried away with large charges. I don't think 120 grs of fffg will be that much of a problem in my barrel, but I'll talk to the folks at Green Mountain and see what they say. My thinking, like yours, is to get as much out of it velocity wise to flatten the trajectory and give it more punch out there where the elk are. The energy statistics in that manual are enlightening to say the least and, while I know it's been done at longer ranges, I'll keep my shots to 125 yds max. And it'd have to be a big bull to push it that far...after all, we're using these smokepoles 'cause they're fun and I can't think of something more fun than seeing a big bull and having to sneak a little closer! I like elk steak too, and it might taste even better if I got it with my Hawken.
Regards, Bearman

 

[Darkhorse]

Bearman, we seem to be thinking along the same lines about hunting elk with a ML. I have taken several nice bulls and a couple of raghorns with 7mm and 300 mags and I know first hand how tough they can be and how tough the country can be.
I have pretty well set my personal limit at about 125 yards. Though with a good rest and 350 class bull I might perhaps push the distance a mite.
My dream is to hunt them during the rut and have that big herd bull right on top of me. But often the tag lottery controls that. The other option is a Migratory hunt where they travel known trails in bad weather and try to hide close by one and hope one walks close enough.
The success rate may not be as high on the general hunt but at least you get to hunt.

 

well, I've only had the opportunity to hunt Elk once, got a nice 5X5. Yes, they are tough animals. I felt undergunned with my .308 at 200 yds, and it took followup shots to kill the animal (first one dropped it, but it got up). I have friends who hunt Elk a lot more than me. Some with a bow and arrow. Now, that is how I view ML hunting for Elk--like B&A hunting, you gots to get close! When you do, accuracy wins over "power". Velocity drops off quickly with a roundball, thus energy drops quickly. Close range shots retain more "power" and you don't need to overload. Of course you can take the viewpoint that the excess power is insurance in case you have to take the longer shot. But for me, like a bowhunter, I simply pass up shots that are out of range. :m2c:

 

[roundball]

I've almost finished my Hawken .54 and I'll be working up some loads for it. Barrel is 34", 1 1/8 across the flats so she'll handle stout loads. I'm wondering about top velocity I can get out of this rifle. With 120 to 140 grains of ffg and Irish linen patch over powder and one around the ball, is it realistic to think I can get 1900 fps out of her? Has anyone out there put any similar loads through a chrono and got some numbers? Or does anyone know of any tables that would list velocity for these loads? I want to have a nice stiff load in her as my main quarry will be Wapiti and they can absorb some lead. Also interested to know what caliber and load any other elk hunters are using. Thanks.
Regards, Bearman

FWIW, I use Goex 3F in .45/.50/.54 calibers as its faster, cleaner, and very accurate for me in my Flintlocks.

But I don't flirt with pressure curves...I simply reduce 2F load data by about 15% when I use 3F...for example, in place of a published 2F load data of 110grns 2F, I use 90grns 3F instead...a 19% reduction.

I use 2F in the large bores like .58/.62 calibers, and just use the normal published 2F load data for them.

(PS: I have a spare copy of the first edition Lyman BP manual, PM if interested).

 

[mglampson]

My load for my .54 GPR is 70 grs. of fffg and a patched round ball. Just once some time ago I got to fool around with a friends chonograpgh. I increased the charge by 5 grs each shot to see the difference. At a certain point, the velocity stopped increasing. I think I had run out of barrel length (32"). 70 grs. makes for potent deer medicine and is a sweet shooter, light recoil and through and through shots are the norm.

Britches

 

[Bob J]

Have you killed deer with that light of a charge? How far do they typically run?