54 vs 50...any real advantage?

[Semisane]

will a round ball work out to 150 yards? Or is the conical the better choice for that..?

Assuming by work you mean kill game like deer, a round ball of sufficient weight/diameter will work out to 150 yards. For me, that definitely does not include the .45 caliber, and even the .50 is marginal at that distance. Personally, I limit round ball shots on game with a .50 to 100 yards. I'll take longer shots with the .54 and .58 but to go out as far as 150 yards conditions would have to be absolutely perfect - broadside shot/relaxed and still animal/no wind/good rest/good light.

On the other hand, I will not hesitate to take a 150 yard shot on a deer with a 350 or 465 grain conical in my .45 Green Mountain barrel. For me, a conical is clearly a better choice for the hunter wanting or needing to shoot beyond 100 yards.

Will a 450 grain conical 45 bullet fly and hit like a 450 grain 54 conical...? Or does the diameter of the 54 have an advantage..?

Given equal weight, the .45 bullet will have a significantly better ballistic coefficient than will the .54. If both are leaving the muzzle at the same velocity, the .45 will have a flatter trajectory and will maintain velocity and energy better.

 

[Rifleman1776]

In response to Rifleman1776

A few things.

Check your state laws and neighboring state laws on legal muzzleloading equipment.

I don't quite know what to make of that comment. :hmm:
FWIW, I am in Arkansas. My eyes have been older than 38 for about 40 years. The only deer I have killed with a muzzle loader have been with a .45 cal. round ball and moderate charges. I have not hunted surrounding states but if I ever do, yes, I will check their laws.

 

[Lonegun1894]

If I may ask, what kind of ranges do you usually have to shoot out to when hunting? Don't get me wrong, I understand that your listed 150 yard range is a want, but is it a need? I ask because if you really actually need to reach out to 150, then you just may have to go to a conical, and a .45 will have a better BC and flatter trajectory and less recoil than a .54 loaded to give the same trajectory. However, if the vast majority of your shots are at 100 yards or less like mine are, and the 150 range is for the occasional opportunity, then I would just go with the .54 RB, or even .50 RB, and just resign myself that I will pass up on the long shots outside my range. With perfect conditions, I trust my .50 to 115 yards or so, and my .54 to 125-130, but really prefer to keep both at 100 or less, and 90% of my shots are at 50 yards or less. My last hog, I got to 6 yards before taking the shot. That is where the challenge is to me.

 

[Walks with fire]

Every time I see these conical posts I have to think to myself just how many head of game the poster has taken with the lowly patched ball and why they feel the need for more power. I used to get into the same discussions when I first joined this forum so I do somewhat understand.

I felt the energy numbers were something that needed to be reached to be ethical but I soon learned that it just does not apply to a patched ball. I have taken a good many whitetails with .357 revolvers that show the same energy levels and can tell you from experience the ball is more effective. If you can't take a whitetail deer with a patched ball and one shot then it's not the projectiles fault it's a marksmanship problem.

Energy numbers are pure bunk and sales pitches. Load a ball up with a reasonable charge and learn to shoot. Pointed bullets, heavy conical and the like are not needed. Yes the conical takes game but do they really need it; for me in PA I don't.

I still like to sling some heavy lead from my fast twist barrels but they never get chosen for a deer hunt either.

 

[necchi]

Every time I see these conical posts I have to think to myself just how many head of game the poster has taken with the lowly patched ball and why they feel the need for more power.

:bow: :bow:

 

[crockett]

Shotgunner- probably best to just think of what the mountain men tended toward. They sure could have used a .58 if it was better. The majority were 50 or 54 and it seems the 54 was usually preferred. I'd opt for a 54.

 

[Lonegun1894]

Every time I see these conical posts I have to think to myself just how many head of game the poster has taken with the lowly patched ball and why they feel the need for more power. I used to get into the same discussions when I first joined this forum so I do somewhat understand.

I hope you didn't think I was trying to promote the conical. I started out with modern, and still use them for some things, but prefer the ML with a PRB for hunting use.

 

[Semisane]

Every time I see these conical posts I have to think to myself just how many head of game the poster has taken with the lowly patched ball and why they feel the need for more power. I used to get into the same discussions when I first joined this forum so I do somewhat understand.

I felt the energy numbers were something that needed to be reached to be ethical but I soon learned that it just does not apply to a patched ball. ......

Well WWF, I for one have taken my share of game with patched balls. I hunt with a ball shooter quite often. But there are times when I want one of my fast twist conical shooters.

It's not so much about energy as it is about energy plus trajectory. When I'm sitting in the woods with a maximum 75 yard view I'm perfectly happy with a round ball shooter across my lap. The same when I'm creeping through mature forest that allows me to move from tree to tree. But if I'm sitting on the edge of a year old clear cut that allows me to see game out to 200 or 300 yards in a 180° arc, yet is impossible to move through quietly, I want a conical shooter in my hands. And when I'm sitting on the edge of a pasture and can see the far side tree line 150 yards away, I want a conical shooter in my hands.

If that doesn't appeal to you, fine. But it does appeal to some of us.

 

[necchi]

If that doesn't appeal to you, fine. But it does appeal to some of us.

Yeah, but you know,, that the vast majority of conical questions are from new to the sport guy's that begin their ML quest knowing that traditional arms are weak and lame but they can accomplish the typical deer hunting they need if they use the biggest conical and the max load for the gun,, because once they find out that info all they have to do is go 20-30grns over the max (cause they know the gun can handle it)
And they,, like you can now make 300yrd shot's like Grandpa did.

So we do try with new guy's,, to at least get them to try PRB and moderate loads so they have the opportunity to develop technique and at least some skill.
Many of us came to this sport after becoming bored with the ease of hunting with CF guns,, wanting to bring the hunt and challenge back again.
Bottom line, if I need to make 150-300yrd shots,, these are not the gun I'd choose.

 

[mooman76]

I think the majority of us has been there.

 

[pinemarten]

...I agree, I shoot longbows and flintlocks because I like to hunt. I grew up with CF rifles/scope. Shots out as far as you can get a cross-hair on. It didn't take me long to want some challenge and to make up for not being able to take longer shots by using more skill to get close. If I can't get within 60 yards for the blackpowder or 20 for the bow, its time to hunt harder and wiser...more time scouting (year round). Long shots have much more to go wrong too...there are that many more twigs you can't see or time for the animal to move...or bullet to drift leading to a bad outcome. Those are just my 2 cents, but I do prefer to hunt more than I like to shoot at things.

Daniel

 

[Walks with fire]

I fully understand why conical bullets are the preferred projectile for some black powder applications I know full well at ranges beyond 100 yards they are superior choices. What I do believe is that within the 100 yard ranges for class II game there is no reason to use a heavy conical vs. a ball.

A .45 loaded with a conical from a properly twisted barrel is about as good as it's going to get from a black powder barrel. All I was trying to say is it's not needed in most hunting situations.

The main problem is that these types of barrels and projectiles are not normally available in production rifles in today's market place. They can be acquired with some effort though. Most of the people starting out in this sport want range and power before they learn to hit at the shorter ranges where the ball will serve so well; they don't need a 400+ bullet. Most shooters are horrible shots and I see it at my range all the time. Most should restrict their shots to less than 100 yards.

Some of the people on here are seasoned marksmen, they know their personal abilities and their rifles very well. These people are not the normal special season's hunter. With the ability to range a shots distance correctly and place shots at those ranges consistently then yes the bullet is better.

 

[necchi]

I think the majority of us has been there.

:wink: Oh yeah,, I remember turn,, even had to change over to musket caps!

 

[Russ Clagett]

I'd like to thank the majority of you who have taken the time to post and allow me to learn from your years of experience...

To those of you who feel like it's a dead horse and has already been dealt with too much...I'm sorry I wasted your time.

I am new to this forum, and new to muzzleloading but I am not new to shooting, or hunting. I have even done the kind of hunting Hemingway talked about.

My only intent was to explore options. Thanks again to those who were helpful.

 

[mooman76]

Don't worry. You didn't waste our time and I'm sure it was not meant to sound that way. We realize you are new and the rest of us were new at one time too. Just trying to help you with other options and give you a little of our experience.

If you still want to shoot conicals, why not. I primarily use RBs now but still shoot conicals sometimes and they do have a place here.

 

[Lonegun1894]

It's never a waste of time, and hopefully you got some good info. Besides, any forum, including this one, would get real boring real quick if no one had any questions and we had nothing to discuss. I bet you have also figured out that a lot of us are a bit behind the times, set in our ways, and maybe even a bit prejudiced. :rotf:

 

[Billnpatti]

Well, I haven't read all of the answers that have been posted so I might well be repeating what has already been said. But here goes. If you were planning on hunting just deer or hogs, I'd recommend a .50 as being plenty bad medicine within the 100 yard limit set by all ethical hunters when shooting a traditional muzzleloader with open sights. But, when it comes to bear, I would want at least a .54 and maybe a .58. Neither shoots as flat as a .50 but they pack more punch. As for shooting the heaviest conicals....When a projectile goes through your quary, much of the kinetic energy goes out the other side of the animal and is lost into the dirt down range. I have found that a patched round ball from a .50 cal. rifle will completely kill a deer or antelope and you can't get any deader than being completely killed. A patched round ball from a .50 cal. rifle will completely kill a bear but they are tough and may not die right there. Mr. Bruin may decide to bite you if you don't kill or disable him quickly. So, for deer or hogs, a .50 with a patched round ball under 100 yards will serve you quite well but if you prefer to use a conical, it, too, will "get 'er done". For bear, a .50 with either a patched round ball or a conical will get the job done but, personally, I would feel a bit more comfortable with a .54....or a .58.....or maybe a .62. I hunt from a stand and a wounded hog, while very dangerous, can't climb a hunting stand, a bear can. That's why I'd want him dead right there with all of the springs taken out of his climber. And those are my thoughts on the subject....for whatever they might be worth.

 

[Walks with fire]

While I have nothing to back my opinion up it is my belief that shooting a bear is different than shooting a deer with a .50 lead ball. Will it work? I am sure it has. I have never shot a bear and wouldn't even if I could. I just have no interest in eating a bear.

My feeling is that I would want a hardened ball for less expansion and more penetration if I were to do it. Heavier weight ball would also help a great deal imo as well.

I think that once a lead ball drops below approx. 900 fps. it's not going to expand much and penetration will improve. One of the reasons I load up to as high a velocity as my rifle will shoot accurately when hunting deer is I want that expansion because deer don't require excessive penetration. A flattened ball should provide a bit more shock at impact. I also like the flattest trajectory I can achieve.

I understand it's not necessary but it is available. A conical of more weight and higher ballistic coefficient is going to penetrate better as well and stay on course if the twist is right.

Real black powder can only develop so much velocity per weight and shape of projectile. I don't try to make them perform beyond their limits. If you want more power you need more weight.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Bear is real good eatting.

 

[crockett]

RC- there's one more aspect to this issue. I've posted this before so sorry to repeat myself but a few years ago I got a large cardboard box- about the color of a deer, and cut out a full size profile, I then paced off 150 steps over rough ground- trying to get 1 yard per step. I then turned around and walked back to the vehicle. The profile was put up in a bushy/tall grass field in the Fall and the grass was about the color of the cardboard.
When I turned around -at first- I couldn't even SEE the cardboard cut out. Well, I used the hood of the vehicle for a rest, the rifle resting on blankets and with open sights it was very difficult FOR ME to really draw a good bead. I ended up firing about 5 rounds and the group was about 6" and in the lungs but I had to ask myself in a real situation with time to shoot probably limited and no solid shooting rest- could I really make a 150 yard shot with a muzzle loader and open sights? Some can- they are better than I but for me I figured about 70 yards is a good working range for hunting with a muzzle loader. That means the PRB is still within its effective range.
If I was antelope hunting in Wyoming I would probably use a conical but that is maybe one of the few situations I can think of it being helpful. Maybe a large moose might be another.
On the bears, I've seen a 225 lb. black bear shot through both lungs with an arrow that ran one way maybe 15 yards, then switched directions and ran maybe 25 in the other direction and dropped. I haven't killed a black bear with a muzzle loader yet but a similar shot would seem to do as well.