58 caliber TC barrel

[Grantman]

There is a 58 caliber TC Hawken barrel on auction. Currently at $150.00 w ten shots down the tube. This barrel is 1" across the flats with a 1/48 twist and a QLA. Questions: Will this barrel drop into a 50 TC Hawken? The 1/48" twist and QLA seem problematic to me. I'd like your opinions. I think the twist would be too fast for round ball and I can't imagine sending a 550 grain conical down range.

 

[rice1817]

A 1 inch barrel will be a mighty tight fit into the 15/16 barrel channel of your TC 50. It would fit the Renegade, but that doesn't help you. I believe the biggest bore commonly found in a 15/16 is .54.

 

[roundball]

There is a 58 caliber TC Hawken barrel on auction. Currently at $150.00 w ten shots down the tube. This barrel is 1" across the flats with a 1/48 twist and a QLA. Questions: Will this barrel drop into a 50 TC Hawken? The 1/48" twist and QLA seem problematic to me. I'd like your opinions. I think the twist would be too fast for round ball and I can't imagine sending a 550 grain conical down range.

First, the 1:48" twist x round ball accuracy issue is an old wives tale...total BS...does not apply...1:48" twists are outdstanding with PRBs...personal tests and use for 17 years.

Just some additional info to the previous comments about a 1" being a tight fit in a 15/16" stock...there are two different physical sizes of TC Hawken stocks:

The regular size is for the 15/16" .45/.50cal barrels;
The large size stock is for the 1" .54/.58cal barrels...the entire stock is proportionately larger/stronger to withstand the heavier barrel, heavier loads, possibly heavier recoil.

And if a 1" could even be wedged down in a 15/16" barrel bed...without splitting the stock...it would not set down all the way as the flats in the barrel bed are too small and the wedge pin tenon would not line up with the escutcheons...so the barrel bed inletting dimensions would have be enlarged, weakening the smaller size stock.

The 15/16" brass nose cap would have to be replaced to receive the larger 1" barrel...plus the larger size nosecap won't fit properly on the smaller sized Hawken stock;

The 15/16" tang would have to be replaced with the larger size 1" tang to mate with the 1" barrel and possibly more inletting done to accommodate the larger tang's face sitting down into the wood;

Finally, no knowing what might have happened to the barrel, I sure wouldn't pay $150 for it when a brand new one from TC's Fox Ridge store is only $185...and the QLA is worthless if you're just going to shoot round balls...and you give up an inch of rifling for it.

PS: it always amazes me the number of used rifles or barrels up for sale that "have only been shot 10 times"... :grin:

 

[Stubert]

I had a Cabelas hawken with a 58 cal. 1-48 twist. It would not shoot roundballs with powder charges over 60 grains. Any higher than that and the ball would strip the rifling, disintegrating the patch. There is to much mass to spin that fast. That ball weighs about 270 grains. A thick skirted minnie for stiffer loads would be good, however recoil becomes a bit noticeable.

 

[roundball]

I had a Cabelas hawken with a 58 cal. 1-48 twist. It would not shoot roundballs with powder charges over 60 grains. Any higher than that and the ball would strip the rifling, disintegrating the patch. There is to much mass to spin that fast. That ball weighs about 270 grains. A thick skirted minnie for stiffer loads would be good, however recoil becomes a bit noticeable.

You can't "over spin" a round ball...that would be like saying a quarterback made his football spin too much. A 1:48" twist only revolves the ball once in 4 feet...that means only 1/2 of a revolution in a 2 foot barrel.

And it's not a case of "stripping the rifling and tearing up the patch"...that's the old wives tale part of it. Its a case of the patch burning up from the large powder charge...put an Oxyoke prelubed wad on top of the powder charge to act as a firewall...which is exactly what they were invented for...and the patches will no longer fail and accuracy will be perfect.

All my TC 1:48" barrels in several calibers shoot 1+7/8" - 2+3/4" groups at 100 yards using 90grns Goex 3F, Oxyoke wad, .018" TC prelubed pillow ticking...(that's like using 110grns 2F)

 

[boar]

Stubert If you took that barrel and recut it to 10-12 thousands it would shoot the RBs. Douglas barrels were 1-48 twist. I have a .50 hand cut rifling barrel that came with a paper saying you could shoot 125grs behind a RB and not strip. It has very deep rifligs. Your barrel probably has shallow rifling,(.07) Dilly

 

[paulvallandigham]

Stubert: You can't overspin a round ball. ROUNDBALL is correct on that. You can also use more powder with a .58 RB and still get good accuracy. Your rifling is deep enough as is. You may have to adjust the diameter of the ball you use, and the thickness of the patch used. I like to see people use OP wads on top of the powder charge, to seal the gases and protect whatever patch you use. in most cases, if your RB is .020" small in diameter than the bore diameter, and you use .015-.018" patches, you will get fine accuracy.

I think you can use 70 grains of FFg with a round ball, and get over 1000 fps in velocity. That is a lot for this size ball, both in weight and diameter. You can load the gun up to 120 grains of FFg but the recoil becomes brutal at about 90 grains, and that is no fun to shoot. Worse, you lose a lot of velocity in the first 50 yards, so you have to ask yourself under what hunting conditions will I ever need to use a large powder charge in this gun?

I looked at some published data for a .54 cal. RB load leaving the muzzle at 1800 fps. The Ball lost 12.3% of its velocity in the first 25 yds! It lost another 10.8 % of velocity in the next 25 yard, or a total of 33.1% of its velocity in the first 50 yds. it lost another 9% at 75 yards, and only another 6.4 % at 100 yds, where the ball was traveling at 1105 fps, or the speed of sound. Velocity loss at 125 was another 4.5%, and at 150 was another 3.4%.

THE FASTER A BALL LEAVES THE MUZZLE, THE FASTER IT SLOWS.

That 1800 fps second load in the .54 lost 45.5% of its velocity at 100 yard, but only 7.9% of its velocity over the next 50 yards.

The fall off of energy is even more spectacular.

Muzzle Energy= 1608 Ft. Lbs.\
25 yds 1235 -373, = 23.2% drop
50 yds 949 -286 = 17.8% drop
75 yds 740 -209 = 12.4% drop
100 yds 606 -136 = 12.5% drop

125 rds 521 - 85 = 8.45%drop
150 yds. 460 - 61 = 3.8% drop

That is 66% of the energy lost by 100 yds.

You do not have to put a lot of powder under a ball that weighs 5/8 oz. to have it kill just about anything that walks. Unless you are hunting bears, where I would recommend that you use a conical bullet anyway, for deeper penetration. A RB load that uses 70-90 grains will kill any soft skinned animal within the range of your ability to use open sights on a rifle for hunting.

For target shooting, many people are using loads as low as 45 grains of FFFg[url] powder.in[/url] that .58 using a PRB.

 

[zukeeper1]

Roundball,
If the stock channeled for 15/16 flats is meant for 45 /50 caliber , what is your feelings on putting in the green mountain barrel in 54 with 15/16 flats ? I ask this because I was planning on going from 50 to 54 in my T/C hawkens but your comment has me concerned.

 

[rice1817]

I disagree that it is impossible to overspin a roundball, at least when practical hunting or target shooting ballistics are taken into account. As for the ball only making 1 complete turn in 48 inches, again that is true. However, put that into context as the ball is moving at something on the order of 1500 feet per second which means that the ball is spinning about 400 times a second, or 24,000RPM!

Each size of ball has an optimum RPM that is a function of velocity and rifling twist. The larger the caliber, the less rpm needed to achieve stability. I agree that a 1 in 48 twist, with proper rifling depth, will do a wonderful job of stabilizing a round ball, and give you superb accuracy, but only within a very narrow band of powder charges that will generate the optimum RPM. There is a reason that round ball rifles are not rifled 1 in 20, or 1 in 30. With very light powder charges, these fast twists will work with roundball, but trajectory and velocity suffer greatly.

Modern shooters face the same situation. The early AR15/M16 rifles used a rifling twist optimized for the shorter 55 grain bullet. When the army went to a heavier bullet, they had to alter the rifling twist since the heavier bullet was not being stabilized by the slower (by modern standards) twist of the exisiting rifles. Conversely, accuracy generally goes south when the 55 grain bullets are run through the faster rifling twists in the newer rifles.

 

[Stubert]

My patches were shredding, not burning. I tried 3 size balls and a bunch of differant patches. I even tried hornet nest over the powder. The rifling was very shallow so I do think it was designed for a minnie. I got disgusted, sold the barrel and put on a Green Mtn..54 barrel with a 1-70 twist. Problem solved. I still wanted a big bore so I picked up a used fullstock Hawken flint in 62 cal. with a 1-66. That balls weighs 340 grains.

 

[jercon]

I have a GM .54 15/16 on mine and what a shooter it is with no problems.I have shot as high as 140 gr of 3 f in it with! ,.535PRB and it gets the job done have taken 7 Deer with it and 7 with the .45 Barrel that came on the rifle in 1977.

 

[Grantman]

Does the TC custom shop offer complete 58 caliber rifles?

 

[roundball]

And you may certainly disagree, but there are two flies in the ointment of your response.

First, we are not talking about "bullets"...which are longer than caliber projectiles...we are talking about round spheres so none of the example references to "bullets" and their respective twists apply...you can't overspin a round sphere...apples and oranges.

The second is the number 24,000 RPM with a big exclamation mark after it...it sounds impressive...but its a meaningless number here...the ball exits the muzzle in a few milliseconds...not a full minute as in "24,000 revolutions per minute"...doesn't matter how fast you push the ball down the barrel, it's still only going to turn 1 revolution in 48".

 

[rice1817]

And you may certainly disagree, but there are two flies in the ointment of your response.

First, we are not talking about "bullets"...which are longer than caliber projectiles...we are talking about round spheres so none of the example references to "bullets" and their respective twists apply...you can't overspin a round sphere...apples and oranges.

The second is the number 24,000 RPM with a big exclamation mark after it...it sounds impressive...but its a meaningless number here...the ball exits the muzzle in a few milliseconds...not a full minute as in "24,000 revolutions per minute"...doesn't matter how fast you push the ball down the barrel, it's still only going to turn 1 revolution in 48".

May be getting off topic, but if that is the case, why not rifle roundball rifles with a 1 in 20 twist and just cut the rifling deeper to accept a patch? True, a ball may only be making 1 complete revolution in 48 inches, but how fast the ball navigates those 48 inches has a direct impact on the stability of the ball. RPM (or Revolutions per second) are the key, not the outright twist rate.

 

[Sharp Shooter]

I have a TC 58cal barrel and it will shoot roundball just fine with loads from 100gr FFG to 120gr FFg.

 

[rice1817]

I have a TC 58cal barrel and it will shoot roundball just fine with loads from 100gr FFG to 120gr FFg.

That load should generate approximately 1500-1600 fps, and thus the optimal rotational rate for a patched round ball of a large caliber.

See the link below for a discussion of this topic.
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum...?tid/203667/post/376147/hl//fromsearch/1[/url]/

 

[Walks with fire]

The fastest twist barrel that I own is 1/28 twist with .005 deep grooves; it's a GM .50 cal and only 24" long. Now I have only shot it a few times with rb's; the accuracy was very good. I intend to do much more testing with it this spring. I used 80 grains of 3f Goex; .495 ball and Wal-Mart .018 ticking patch with Crisco lube. One big 3 shot hole at 60 yards.

A .50 caliber roundball is a 75 yard gun to me. Others can use it beyond that range but I limit myself to that range with my 1/66 twist rb gun as well. I know that 1/28 twist will do minuite of a deers heart at the range and it's good enough for me.

 

[roundball]

Please don't misunderstand...I'm not interested in debating anything...I was just correcting a misunderstanding that was stated about 1:48" twists not being accurate with PRBs because they "shred patches" and "skip rifling"...so I'll just stick with the basics and summarize it this way...indeed, in spite of all sorts of RPM concerns, etc:

Every Thompson Center 1:48" barrel I've ever owned and currently own, and have shot over the past 17 years, including multiple calibers, have all shot and/or still shoot full power, maximum powder charged PRB hunting loads very accurately...none of them have ever caused a PRB to have "shredded patches" or to "skip the rifling".

When the average guy has accuracy problems using modern made muzzleloaders, the first thing that usually gets attacked is the equipment and frankly, equipment is usually the last thing that is ever the root cause of any problem.

PS:
Anyone who has any TC Hawken 1:48" barrels in outstanding condition that you don't use because they "shred patches" or "skip rifling" with large powder charges, please send me a PM and if priced right I'll be glad to take them off your hands.

 

[windwalker_au]

Please don't misunderstand...I'm not interested in debating anything...I was just correcting a misunderstanding that was stated about 1:48" twists not being accurate with PRBs because they "shred patches" and "skip rifling"...so I'll just stick with the basics and summarize it this way...indeed, in spite of all sorts of RPM concerns, etc:

Every Thompson Center 1:48" barrel I've ever owned and currently own, and have shot over the past 17 years, including multiple calibers, have all shot and/or still shoot full power, maximum powder charged PRB hunting loads very accurately...none of them have ever caused a PRB to have "shredded patches" or to "skip the rifling".

When the average guy has accuracy problems using modern made muzzleloaders, the first thing that usually gets attacked is the equipment and frankly, equipment is usually the last thing that is ever the root cause of any problem.

PS:
Anyone who has any TC Hawken 1:48" barrels in outstanding condition that you don't use because they "shred patches" or "skip rifling" with large powder charges, please send me a PM and if priced right I'll be glad to take them off your hands.

Bill i read once read that all the origional hawkens guns had 1x48 twist is this true and if it is then does this not prove you rite. my .50 call ranson has a 1x48 twist and shoots round balls very well so do the lyman trade guns have a 1x48 twist and shalow groves and they shoot rb very well, i think with shalow groves you need a very tite patch and a wad over the powder i have like you never had any probs with that set up.
Bernie :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

"...my .50 call ranson has a 1x48 twist and shoots round balls very well..."
"...so do the lyman trade guns have a 1x48 twist and shalow groves and they shoot rb very well..."
"...with shalow groves you need a very tite patch and a wad over the powder..."
"...i have like you never had any probs with that set up..."

Yeah, with OP wads acting as a firewall to protect the patch from burning/shredding there's no loss of[url] accuracy...in[/url] fact, and you've also probably experienced that OP wads actually tighten the groups up more than normal