62 cal GM With Shot Loads

[BrownBear]

In a nutshell WOW!!!!!

I switched from PRB to shot and did some load testing at 25 yards recently, in anticipation of a long winter of snowshoe hare hunts. Patterns were really smooth and dense, but I never got around to trying it further out.

Today was the big day for my first hunt with the rig, but with no snow the nervous white hares were jumping at about 30 yards and skeedaddling in high gear.

After watching a few of those, I broke down and tried a running shot at about 35 yards. Rolled that sucker like I was shooting a tight 12! Did it again a little while later, so I'm pretty sure there's more than chance at work.

I only wanted two for dinner, so I headed back down to the truck parked by the ocean. When I got there I fired the charge into the water at around 40 yards, and was really surprised at how tight and smooth the pattern looked even that far out.

I'll be heading back out to the range to pattern my load at 30, 35 and 40 yards. It seems I was selling it really short with my 25 yard tests for snowshoe hare (roughly jackrabbit size). No pics because I discovered my battery was dead, but there will be lots more ops this winter.

Here's my load: 80 grains of 2f Goex with a charge of #6 chilled shot dropped from the same measure. My base wad is a Type A .125" wad soaked overnight in olive oil, and I'm using a single knicked overshot card.

The barrel is mounted on a Renegade stock and I've removed the rear sight. Standing in my living room it feels "too barrel heavy" for use on running game, but it was plenty responsive in the field today.

 

[buttonbuck]

I have not shot mine with shot but I have a single trigger renegade stock for the barrel, I lucked out and got one from Cains for a hundred dollars. The English style grip it has with the single trigger feels comfortable but I have considered adding an inch with a recoil pad.

 

[Congress Own Regiment]

sounds like a good day. Miss snowshoe hare hunting hope for a day or two of when I travel back to see family in Vt. Always hunted with black powder muzzle loader and 14 ga. shells loaded with black powder. personally i think black powder shoots shot better. that is as soon as you find a load the gun likes.

Heavy barreled doubles can be great wing guns just need to use them to get into the swing of things. I try my children to get there lead on rabbits by having them chase a flash light beam bouncing across the floor and walls with an empty gun.
The only draw back to black powder on white rabbits in the brushy snow covered woods is the smoke counsels the results of the shot and you are left guessing until it clears and you track to see if you harvested it.
On humid days it can be a change to tell if you dusted the grouse throw the cloud that just hangs there. practice and more practice are your true friends.

 

[BrownBear]

I know what you mean. For something like 20 years I hunted snowshoes with beagles and a NA double 12. The second barrel was kinda pointless for follow-ups at white rabbits on white snow behind a white cloud of smoke! :rotf:

On dressing these two, I'm convinced the long hits were no fluke. One had 3 pellets in the body and the other had 5. I wouldn't want any more than that, so it looks like I'll be "fringing" them with the edge of the pattern at closer ranges.

I've got plans for a great big old rabbit pot pie for dinner tomorrow night! :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

"...Here's my load: 80 grains of 2f Goex with a charge of #6 chilled shot dropped from the same measure. My base wad is a Type A .125" wad..."

That sounds great BrownBear...as we've discussed, those GM drop-in smoothbore barrels are outstanding. I sold my GM .62cal that was Jug Choked Full when I got the .62cal Virginia...but kept the one that's Jug Choked Imp.Cyl.PLUS as a backup .20ga...used it on a Tom this spring because the Virginia didn't make it in time.

What is the 'Type A' card you referenced...is that like Circle Fly's 1/8" hard pressed cardboard wad?

 

[BrownBear]

What is the 'Type A' card you referenced...is that like Circle Fly's 1/8" hard pressed cardboard wad?

That's what TOW calls them, but they could very well be sourced from Circle Fly. I haven't seen any labelled Circle Fly. Here is TOW's listing for comparison.

 

[Linc]

I've got .58cal. Jackie Brown Canoe Gun that I am trying to work up a load for. So far I am not impressed. I've used the over powder card, 1/2" wad, 3/4oz of #6 and a thin overshot card.I have also shot with 7/8oz. I've tried it with 60 and 70 gr of 3F. I will have to try it with out the wad and see if the pattern improves.

 

[hunts4deer]

So you are not using any other cushion wad, just a lubricated overpowder card. How easy is the second and third loading? Is there a start of fouling build-up?

It could be that the fact that you have such a short column of wad that contributes to better groups. The original "Art of Shoot Flying" poem from the early 1700's references a very simple short wad and goes on to advise 40 yard shots on partridges.

Maybe I need to make a trip back to the patterning board and try this.

 

[roundball]

I've got .58cal. Jackie Brown Canoe Gun that I am trying to work up a load for. So far I am not impressed. I've used the over powder card, 1/2" wad, 3/4oz of #6 and a thin overshot card.I have also shot with 7/8oz. I've tried it with 60 and 70 gr of 3F. I will have to try it with out the wad and see if the pattern improves.

In my opinion, it doesn't sound like you're using near enough shot...remember, you're using a muzzleloader, not a modern shotgun.
Speaking for myself I subscribe to the old saying that goes something like:
Load powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead.

I don't use muzzleloader shot loads according to the limitations of modern 2+3/4" shotgun shells...IMO there is no strict correlation to bare bore, black powder shot loads and I always use a ratio of more lead to powder.

And when I move to the next larger shot size, which has more air space / fewer pellets / less weight, I bump up the shot load another 1/8oz, for example, my .20ga squirrel load is:
80grns Goex 2F
Two Oxyoke 1/8" lubed wool wads
One OS card
100grn measure of #5s (1+3/8oz volume)
Two OS cards

Conversely if I used #6s it would be a 90grn measure (1/8oz less volume) because there would be more pellets, less air space, more weight, etc...been using that approach in GM and now Rice barrels for the past several years now.

Other's mileage may vary of course.

 

[BrownBear]

So you are not using any other cushion wad, just a lubricated overpowder card. How easy is the second and third loading? Is there a start of fouling build-up?

Nope. Nothing more than the lubed Type A between the shot and powder.

I've shot as many as 10 shots before swabbing without serious buildup. I do notice that the cards get dryer and dryer as the days pass after the overnight olive oil soak, and the fouling is harder and increases seating effort. I think that's due to it soaking in.

I believe I'll either need to make it a standard to lube them the night before shooting, or else come up with a lube that doesn't continue soaking in. I'm betting a beeswax/olive oil blend applied with heat will be the answer.

One thing worth noting- That GM barrel is really "tight" for a 62 cal. A bare .610 ball sits on the muzzle and won't drop, and .600 balls require thin muslin patches. In using wads and shot, that translates into a really tight fit of the Type A card, as well as the overshot card. I can barely seat the overshot card with thumb pressure, and the Type A won't go halfway into the bore with lots of thumb pressure. The standard 62 cal jag I'm using is so tight that I have to give the rod a good whack to start a flannel cleaning patch into the bore.

No big whoop, other than the fact that I suspect that the combo of that hard Type A card and a jag that extends virtually to the edge is resulting in serious fouling scrubbing as I seat it each load. A looser fit or softer wad would not result in nearly so much swabbing. The olive oil is sufficient to keep the fouling soft, but less of it on a dryer Type A definitely results in harder seating.

From a practical hunting standpoint, I may end up limiting my range somewhat with a shot change. On dressing the rabbits last night I found that most of the shot failed to penetrate completely, leaving more cleanup than I like. I'm using #6 right now because I'm out of my preferred #5's. The #5's penetrate completely based on past experience, but going to them will thin the pattern.

Here's another interesting note from my prior pattern testing. Using the same charge of Goex 3f rather than 2f resulted in a much thinner, larger pattern. I've got a can of 1f sitting here, and I'm curious if that will further tighten the pattern. I'd likely have to increase the charge a little to get the velocity I like, so that might offset any pattern improvement I infer from a "gentler" start. :hmm:

 

[roundball]

Yes, oddly, GM's .62cal smoothbores are .610's instead of .620's.
When I got one I even called GM thinkng they had made an error, but they confirmed that .610" is the correct size...subsequent GM .62cals mic'ed the same .610".
So I tried some .595's from TOW and they worked fine.

 

[crowkiller]

If you guys want a real eye opener. On what is really going on when you are pattern testing.
Find someone that makes shot.Get some fresh dropped still very shiney.Before they graphite it.
Shoot it in the morning when the sun is 30 to about 45 degrees over your shoulder. I can see the shot and what is happening all the way to the paper. It looks like shiney diamonds in flight.
I have learned more about patterning,shot string,and what it takes to get a good pattern.Or a poor pattern.By being able to see the shot.
BTW I make all of my shot. Right now I am patterning some 13% tin shot and getting 86% patterns at 40 yards.This is some very hard shot.

 

[BrownBear]

I've had that experience with nickel plated shot and cartridge guns, but from muzzleloaders I couldn't see bodiddly due to the smoke. I'm still thinking about nickel plated for this gun, but I'll have to order it first.

 

[crowkiller]

Smoke can be a problem on a calm day.
I deal with that by using a lohmam site vise. That allows me to see the shot and check exact poi on the pattern board.

 

[roundball]

"...nickel plated shot..."

I normally use hard 'magnum' lead shot for best lead shot performance.

When I was doing turkey load development, I ordered a 10lb bag of Copper Plated #6's from MidwayUSA to see if it would add more shot into the center of my turkey pattern at 40yds.
Was disappointed to find it only averaged 2-3 more pellets in the 4" circle.
Then ordered a bag of Nickel plated #6's and they only averaged an extra 5-6 pellets.

NOTE 1:
Later tried EcoTungsten/Niceshot and it averaged "18" more pellets at 40yards...fantastic stuff.

NOTE 2:
Personally I've never seen any modern copper or nickel plated shot that performed anywhere close to the performance of Winchester's plated shot from decades ago...the modern stuff seems to just have a copper wash on it...junk IMO.
A few years ago I got an old leftover bag of Winchester Lubaloy (Copper Plated) #4s from somebody and its just fantastic stuff.

 

[BrownBear]

I've got the remnants an older bag (like 25 years old) of #4 Lawrance, and it's great but too big for my current needs. Good to hear before buying that the newer stuff isn't good. That pretty well settles me on nickel, I think. I don't need the Ecotungsten for rabbits, but when I get back into waterfowl that will be my top choice I think.

I'm really starting to wonder what that "tight" base wad is contributing to my good patterns. I worked a bit last year with shot in my Brown Bess using spec 11 gauge components. They seemed awfully loose, and coincidence or not I wasn't doing as well at 25 yards as I am with the 20 in spite of bigger shot loads. I might have to pick up some 10 gauge Type A wads to see if I've been getting a little gas leakage around the base wad. That would sure explain a lot about the loose pattern!

The weather is too nasty today, or I'd be back out "testing" the snowshoe hare again. The ones from the last hunt have been simmering all afternoon, and the smell is adding to my enthusiasm! Where's that smiley for drooling on a keyboard? :wink:

 

[Linc]

I see I have a long ways to go. I've been using unlubed overpowder cards. No problem loading or barrel fouling to speak of. 1/2 wads I have tried dry, preluded with bore butter melted in, bees wax/olive oil melted in.

I will have to try 2F to see if the patterns tighten. Then no wad. Heavier shot charges with and with out wads. I hope to keep the loads on the lighter side as this gun is less than 6 pounds and is punishing with heavy loads.

 

[BrownBear]

I hope to keep the loads on the lighter side as this gun is less than 6 pounds and is punishing with heavy loads.

I feel like I'm doing a lot of groping around in the dark because my experience is so old, but from around 1975 through 1995 I shot a NA double 12 almost exclusively for everything from snowshoe hare to ducks and geese. Part of that was developing a lighter load for the snowshoe hares just to cut down on pellets in flesh at closer ranges.

In my 12 anyway, going to tighter-fitting base wads and overshot cards with the light loads slowed loading but improved patterns. I ended up also going to larger shot to cut down hits, but still managed a 1 oz load that patterned well enough I used it with smaller shot for wing shooting ptarmigan.

That might be a useful area of "research" for you. If your bore isn't as tight as my GM, you might be able to use the 19 gauge wads rather than 20 gauge (.636" vs .625"). Here is the start page for wads and cards at TOW with a comparison chart. If the Type A's were simply too large and hard to compress, the fiber wads might be more compressible, especially when split.

Idle thinking and your money rather than mine, but based on a small bit of experience. I suppose the start point would be accurately miking your bore and taking the # to that chart.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I've got .58cal. Jackie Brown Canoe Gun that I am trying to work up a load for. So far I am not impressed. I've used the over powder card, 1/2" wad, 3/4oz of #6 and a thin overshot card.I have also shot with 7/8oz. I've tried it with 60 and 70 gr of 3F. I will have to try it with out the wad and see if the pattern improves.

There's been some good info brought up, but lets drop back to basics.

The traditional starting point for shot load development unchoked smoothbores of equal volumes of powder and shot is usually taken to be based on using 2Fg powder. If you look at published loading data (mostly in rifles) where 2Fg and 3Fg are both used in comparable circumstances, the necessary 2F-to-3F powder reduction to get the same velocity varies anywhere from less than 1/10 to more than 1/3, with the average around 1/4. I suspect a variety of factors enter into this, like caliber, barrel length, sectional density of the projectile, lube, etc. Since we're looking at both velocity and pattern density in shot loads, and since we have even more variables in these guns and loads, I suspect that one has to consider that 2F-to-3F powder reductions probably have at least as wide a range.

In the absence of a choke, which changes the dynamics drastically, the usual way to open a pattern is to increase the powder charge, and to tighten a pattern is to decrease the powder. The traditional (from at least the 18th century) rule of thumb in the longer barreled fowlers for an optimum between penetration and pattern was for a load of 1/3 more shot than powder by volume, again based on 2Fg. Many of us have found our optimum somewhere in this range, depending on the details of our barrels, wad columns, intended game, etc.

The powder charge equivalent to 3/4oz of shot is 2dr or 55gr; to 7/8oz would be 2.1/4dr or 62gr. Going to 3Fg could require charges as low as the 40gr range, just for the equivalent to the "equal-volume" charge.

Many of us have had problems with using 1/2" cushion wads in unchoked muzzleloaders. Some split them into halves or thirds, and use one of the resulting 1/4" or 1/6" cushion wads. Some use the 1/2" cushions but split them into multiple thin flakes when they load. Others omit the cushion wads and have other ways of lubing. And some of us have suspected that even the 1/8" over-powder cards may affect patterns in their guns/loads and have gone to using multiple over-shot cards instead. Others have done the same just to reduce the number of components they carry. For example, in the rough bores of my 16ga flinter, I need 3-4 of the regular overshot cards (or homemade of similar material) to get a reliable seal, or 4-5 if I punch them out of thinner milk-carton material.

All of this boils down to trying different wad columns, trying lower powder charges, and doing a bunch of testing, both for pattern and for penetration, to find out what works best FOR YOU in YOUR gun.

Regards,
Joel

 

[gearheart]

Hey Brownbear. I love hunting snow bunnies. You're going to have to work on head shots inside 25 yards. :thumbsup: