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.62 caliber military muskets (Rev war)

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Anyone know why .69 and larger bores were so often favored?
The French settled on .69 cal. for their military muskets in the 17th century onward and of course since they gave us huge numbers in the AWI, we adopted the "Charleville" and later French Muskets as the pattern for our Springfield M1795-1840 Muskets.

The British chose .76 cal. for their military muskets in the 17th century onward into the early 19th century.

Larger bore sizes than we might expect allowed easier handling/loading in stressful combat conditions, made even a "wound" in the arm or leg of an enemy soldier something that would take him out of the fight, and finally larger calibers weren't affected so much by cross winds as smaller calibers are.

Gus
 
Mason,

Before going on with more info on American Militia Bayonet Frogs, there has been a timely series of posts by John Spartan I wanted to make sure you didn't miss. There is no way of knowing ahead of time before you get your gun and measure the diameter of the barrel around the front sight, but IF the following bayonet with scabbard and bayonet frog that Veteran Arms sells might fit your gun due to the special blister inside that needs filing to fit your barrel, this is the best deal yet.
https://veteranarms.com/Deluxe-Brown-Bess-Bayonet-&-Scabbard-American-Hasta-Brand-p447560617
and

https://veteranarms.com/Early-British-Bayonet-Frog-p378841431
I personally know John, so I think his review of these items is on point.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/yes-bess-bayonet-question-again….151340/#post-2138687
Will continue with the info on American Militia Frogs in my next post.

Gus
 
Well, I messed up and put two replies in the wrong thread. DUH. OK, here we go.

OK, back to bayonet frogs. Before I get into American Militia, I found another good pic of an original British waist belt set. What I want to point out is the "drop" or distance between the belt loop on top of the frog and the lower portion that goes around the top of the bayonet scabbard and suspends it. This keeps the bayonet socket down far enough that you aren't hitting it with an elbow often.

American Milita frogs were sometimes a part of an over the shoulder or waist belt "carriage," but I'm going to suggest a simpler version of the below waist belt frog if you want to make it yourself, if you don't wish to try making the British military issue frog shown below. That way you can easily slide the frog on or off a waist belt.



1666274726951.png



Here's a simpler made frog that is missing the top belt loop. I don't think it is "English" at all. I'm fairly sure this is in fact a colonial militia frog.


1666275430939.png



Though the following original frog is described as "early 19th century," I believe it is in fact a much earlier militia frog and the entire frog, very similar to the one shown above. Notice the leather button they used on the bayonet scabbard to save money vs the military issue brass locket?

1666276351542.png


Early 19th C American Bayonet & Scabbard | J. Mountain Antiques

Early 19th C American Bayonet & Scabbard
www.jamesmountainantiques.com
www.jamesmountainantiques.com

Below is a repro version somewhat similar to the above frog, though I don't think it has enough "drop" or distance from the top loop to the bottom.



1666275766026.png

www.gggodwin.com

123R-Bayonet Belt Frog [#123R]


www.gggodwin.com
You may be interested in viewing the bayonets and Frogs I got some of the examples from for this post.




OK, will hold off on the bayonet scabbards until my next post, so I don't mess up and lose all the above info.

Gus

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A few thoughts to throw in..........

Back in the mid 1970's when I first began doing AWI as a Continental Marine, we had nowhere near the documentation sources that are so easily found on the internet today. Though some folks on the East Coast and particularly those in the BAR (Brigade of the American Revolution) probably knew about the British pattern Bayonet Frogs; to my knowledge - almost no one or no one knew about them in the Midwest where I was stationed and reenacted. NO ONE listed repro's of them in a nationally known catalogue at the time. When I had visited Colonial Williamsburg for the first time in 1975, no one wore them or displayed them, either. We knew of these frogs, but the earliest date we had was 1805 from an English ship that had sunk on that date.

Where we got the absolute best information on these frogs and bayonet scabbards was from the excavations of the French and Indian War period Pennsylvania frontier fort, Fort Ligonier. That fort was abandoned in the FIW, so anything found there in the archeological record HAD to be no later than that period. The stunning thing about those excavations was the soil was such that leather almost did not rot away in the ground. They found this type of British bayonet frogs and British bayonet scabbards buried there in such remarkably good condition; I'm only exaggerating a bit when I write they could almost have been used once some conditioning leather oil was applied.

When I first began collecting/making my gear for my Black Watch impression, I mentioned I was going to make most of my own leather goods. Another member brought me photo copies of pictures of the bayonet frogs and scabbards found at Fort Ligonier and my jaw bounced off the ground in shock when I saw them. Included in the information was a pattern for the British Bayonet Frog, but I found out it was a bit too small when I made the first one, so I sized it up on my second one. That's also where it was mentioned the four sets of rivets and burs were made of IRON and not copper or brass like most of the repro's made today.

I am not going to admit the lengths I went to find IRON rivets and burs, including searching English sources, but none are made anymore. Blacksmiths I knew either would not make them out of real Iron or the cost was too high. BTW, period hand wrought Iron doesn't rust as easily as modern steel. They did "blacken" period Iron rivets and burs to keep them from rusting as quickly by painting them, but that was done after British Ordnance procured them. So I decided to use modern stainless steel rivets and burs in the correct size and I hand filed and distressed them a bit to look like Iron. This led to an amusing story.

On my first inspection I stood in full kit, my Captain could not find a single thing wrong with me or my gear and trust me, he looked very, VERY hard. (He was a retired US Army Captain and had really looked forward to finding a discrepancy on me because he knew I was a retired Marine. Grin.) I had forgotten to "blacken" the rivets and burrs on my bayonet frog, though. When he spotted the rivets and burrs and in a surprised voice he said, "(Cripes) you even POLISHED the rivets on your bayonet frog?!!" Thinking quickly, I replied, "Sor, are we Privates not required to polish all bare Iron parts on our Firelock, accoutrements and gear, SOR?" He just shook his head.

Finally he looked down at my "well black balled" shoes and shined brass shoe buckles and asked, "Those are pretty fancy shoe buckles you are wearing, Private." In fact I was wearing regulation British shoe buckles, but I had bought the larger of the two sizes available because I have such big feet and therefore a huge shoe size. The larger size actually looked "normal" on my shoes, so at first I really didn't know what my Captain was talking about. However, again thinking quickly and because there were tourist spectators around, I replied, "Sor, I can explain that. I'm a bit ashamed to say, I've wasted too much of my pay over the years on good whisky and loose women. So I decided to spend more on my shoe buckles to look more like a proper Private Soldier. Don't you like them, SOR?" This while I had a tiny grin on my face most of the spectators couldn't see and they began laughing.

It was all my Captain could do not to laugh, so he sort of snorted off a chuckle. However, before he went on to the next Private, he muttered under his breath, "Should have expected that from a (blinketedly blank) Marine." The crowd didn't hear that and I had to freeze my mouth to keep from laughing.

Gus
 
OK, on to bayonet scabbards. Here is what a British Ordnance scabbard MOSTLY looked like. I'm going to call this one "better quality" due to the back having been flat sewn end to end, over the top of the triangular shaped spine of the blade. BTW, this is how Colonial Williamsburg sews up their bayonet scabbards on wooden forms.

1666299977493.png

The following pic shows the "hook like" brass piece near the top of the scabbard that is called the Locket. The brass finial is on the other end of the scabbard.
1666300033197.png

Below is a picture of a Locket where the leather has rotted away between the Locket and the interior "figure 8" shaped washer.

1666300471956.png


Below is a pic of a bunch of excavated Lockets

1666300750076.png


Below is a repro of the Locket. It has two integral posts on the bottom that go through two holes in the scabbard leather, then through the figure 8 washer and finally peened over to hold it in place.

Now here's the problem. I've been buying these since the late 1970's and NO ONE makes a repro figure 8 washer to this very day that I know of. We didn't know for years what that washer was supposed to look like, either. For years I've taken thick sheet stock brass and cut out a rectangular shaped washer and drilled two holes for the posts. Even from the first one, I reasoned the outer edge of the washer needed to be rounded over so the point of the bayonet would slide past them. You can see this was done on the original washers in the pics above. The original figure 8 washers were cast and then drilled for the posts.

1666301064371.png


https://smilingfoxforge.com/shop/index.php?id_product=163&rewrite=hb1-&controller=product

The below repro tip is used for the bottom of a bayonet scabbard to prevent the bayonet from poking through the bottom of the scabbard.

1666300827144.png


Now here's something VERY unique about the original bayonet scabbards dug up at Fort Ligonier. Since the soil was so good, they discovered the triangular rear or top section of the finial had a sheet Iron triangular shaped cone brazed onto it to enclose the bayonet point. This REALLY made it difficult for the bayonet point to either pierce the leather and also ensured the finial would not get popped out of the scabbard by the bayonet point. (You see a LOT of repro bayonet scabbards that lost their finials in reenactors' scabbards or broken off ends because they don't have this feature.) When I learned that, I made sheet brass cones and brazed them on my finials so they wouldn't rust inside the scabbard.

Gus
 
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Oh, thanks for letting me know, that would be great! Both! I would like to slowly build up my kit to be as authentic and or accurate as possible! Thanks! My goodness! So excited!
Hope you have been getting these newer posts.

OK, the below picture shows the "average" way an 18th century bayonet scabbard was made in the first two pics left to right. The two pics on the right show it being made into a Napoleonic Period bayonet scabbard.

Now, British Ordnance would never have accepted the leather tacked together like this as they required proper saddle stitching. The leather is folded around both sides from the flat top of the bayonet blade while wet, should have much better proper saddle stitching and then trimmed somewhat close to the stitching, then more wet forming till done.

On on 18th century style scabbard, they usually began at the bottom and put the finial in place after a couple three stitches. They added the locket when the scabbard was 2/3's to 3/4 length sewn towards the top.

1666310624059.png



Gus
 

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