.62 caliber military muskets (Rev war)

[Dave Fox]

Here's a 1719-dated Tower Colonel's Musket from my accumulation, with thumb escutcheon bearing an earl's coronet and "O" and the buttstock a brand of a coronet over a "1" for the Earl of Orkney's 1st Regiment of Foot. With a 40", approximately .68 caliber barrel, it about qualifies as a carbine. Stocked to near the muzzle, it's a very late British primary piece still shipping a plug bayonet. Most features of the later Brown Bess are here.

 

[Packrat]

The Mexican army had Baker Rifles at the Alamo

 

[Mason Ponton]

Either the Carbine or the Northwest Trade Gun would seem to suit your purposes.

Now comes the hard part of choosing between them and I can't help you with that. GRIN.

You are most welcome.

Gus

 

[Mason Ponton]

Here's a 1719-dated Tower Colonel's Musket from my accumulation, with thumb escutcheon bearing an earl's coronet and "O" and the buttstock a brand of a coronet over a "1" for the Earl of Orkney's 1st Regiment of Foot. With a 40", approximately .68 caliber barrel, it about qualifies as a carbine. Stocked to near the muzzle, it's a very late British primary piece still shipping a plug bayonet. Most features of the later Brown Bess are here.

Wow, that's a beautiful piece ! A little early for what I'm looking for but absolutely beautiful!

 

[The Damned Yankee]

Mason Ponton, a good down and dirty source book is "The History of Weapons of the American Revolution", George C. Neumann. My son has a reproduction "carbine" like Artificer refers to. It looks basically like a short model Brown Bess but it is .65 caliber.
In 1778 a supplier to the Pennsylvania Committee of Safety complained of the need to supply eight different size musket balls!

This is my militia gun. Made by North Star West in 1997. It started as a "Early English Trade Gun (1750s)" in .62 cal. smooth bore. I asked that the stock be cut back for bayonet and "lug" site in stead of silver or turtle front sight. Had sling swivels added also. Yes, a "trade Gun" converted to "Musket".

I've shot .60 cal. cloth patched round ball with great effect. Can use something smaller with paper (.58 or .56). I've also used birdshot in it.

BTW. North Star West use to also make an "British Officer's Light Infantry Fusil" that was .67 caliber, was heavier and had a steel rammer. I've seen these occasionally come up for sale. DY

 

[Mason Ponton]

Mason Ponton, a good down and dirty source book is "The History of Weapons of the American Revolution", George C. Neumann. My son has a reproduction "carbine" like Artificer refers to. It looks basically like a short model Brown Bess but it is .65 caliber.
In 1778 a supplier to the Pennsylvania Committee of Safety complained of the need to supply eight different size musket balls!

This is my militia gun. Made by North Star West in 1997. It started as a "Early English Trade Gun (1750s)" in .62 cal. smooth bore. I asked that the stock be cut back for bayonet and "lug" site in stead of silver or turtle front sight. Had sling swivels added also. Yes, a "trade Gun" converted to "Musket".

I've shot .60 cal. cloth patched round ball with great effect. Can use something smaller with paper (.58 or .56). I've also used birdshot in it.


View attachment 169007

View attachment 168995

BTW. North Star West use to also make an "British Officer's Light Infantry Fusil" that was .67 caliber, was heavier and had a steel rammer. I've seen these occasionally come up for sale. DY

This is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for! Isn't northwest out of business though? If I was to get a northwest trade gun and do what you did, what bayonet would be the best fit? Also my budget is $700, so used, kit, or indian. I'm looking at sitting fox or picatonica river kits so far. Any other places in this price range? I do know the indain stores and I think I know which ones I'll go with if I don't go with a kit. Thanks bunches!

 

[Artificer]

Mason Ponton, a good down and dirty source book is "The History of Weapons of the American Revolution", George C. Neumann. My son has a reproduction "carbine" like Artificer refers to. It looks basically like a short model Brown Bess but it is .65 caliber.
In 1778 a supplier to the Pennsylvania Committee of Safety complained of the need to supply eight different size musket balls!

This is my militia gun. Made by North Star West in 1997. It started as a "Early English Trade Gun (1750s)" in .62 cal. smooth bore. I asked that the stock be cut back for bayonet and "lug" site in stead of silver or turtle front sight. Had sling swivels added also. Yes, a "trade Gun" converted to "Musket".

I've shot .60 cal. cloth patched round ball with great effect. Can use something smaller with paper (.58 or .56). I've also used birdshot in it.


View attachment 169007

View attachment 168995

BTW. North Star West use to also make an "British Officer's Light Infantry Fusil" that was .67 caliber, was heavier and had a steel rammer. I've seen these occasionally come up for sale. DY

I REALLY LIKE that as a gun later modified for bayonet for militia duty! NEAT concept.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

This is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for! Isn't northwest out of business though? If I was to get a northwest trade gun and do what you did, what bayonet would be the best fit? Also my budget is $700, so used, kit, or indian. I'm looking at sitting fox or picatonica river kits so far. Any other places in this price range? I do know the indain stores and I think I know which ones I'll go with if I don't go with a kit. Thanks bunches!

Yes, North Star West is out of business, but good used ones come up here and on gun broker and other auction sites and often already with a bayonet. They may run you another $ 200.00 - 300.00 over your budget, but you won't have to worry about fixing the lock or other things like one often has to do on the India made guns.

I completely understand with a new Daughter how tight money must be for you now, but it is often the case that saving more of your pennies and waiting a bit longer will give you a gun that works better and not cause problems later on.

Gus

 

[Mason Ponton]

Yes, North Star West is out of business, but good used ones come up here and on gun broker and other auction sites and often already with a bayonet. They may run you another $ 200.00 - 300.00 over your budget, but you won't have to worry about fixing the lock or other things like one often has to do on the India made guns.

I completely understand with a new Daughter how tight money must be for you now, but it is often the case that saving more of your pennies and waiting a bit longer will give you a gun that works better and not cause problems later on.

Gus

Thanks again Gus! I've definitely decided, partially because they're out of stock elsewhere , to get a kit from pecatonica river I think. There wood work comes mostly done so I'm actually able to do the rest! From what little I've heard they seem to make good stuff! Have you heard about their quality? Also on another subject kinda what kind of bayonet should I get to retrofit to it? Unless you know a blacksmith who does budget work? I guess I could wait for that but just in case you know off hand. Thanks so much for your advice!

 

[Artificer]

Thanks again Gus! I've definitely decided, partially because they're out of stock elsewhere , to get a kit from pecatonica river I think. There wood work comes mostly done so I'm actually able to do the rest! From what little I've heard they seem to make good stuff! Have you heard about their quality?

I have never purchased anything from pecatonica river, so I can't help much there.

Also on another subject kinda what kind of bayonet should I get to retrofit to it? Unless you know a blacksmith who does budget work? I guess I could wait for that but just in case you know off hand. Thanks so much for your advice!

Probably the least expensive and most correct way to get a bayonet for your gun will be to cut along the length of an existing socket bayonet to close up the diameter and weld it back together. You may be able to still use the reinforced collar on the rear of the socket that way. If not, you would need to cut the reinforced collar off, just as many home made American Militia Bayonets were made in the period. The best deal I found on a repro bayonet is the following one.

https://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-1522-brown-bess-bayonet.aspx
Gus

 

[Mason Ponton]

I have never purchased anything from pecatonica river, so I can't help much there.



Probably the least expensive and most correct way to get a bayonet for your gun will be to cut along the length of an existing socket bayonet to close up the diameter and weld it back together. You may be able to still use the reinforced collar on the rear of the socket that way. If not, you would need to cut the reinforced collar off, just as many home made American Militia Bayonets were made in the period. The best deal I found on a repro bayonet is the following one.

https://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-1522-brown-bess-bayonet.aspx
Gus

Thanks lots Gus! Man, your awesome! This forum is so helpful! I'll give it a try I think!

 

[Artificer]

Thanks lots Gus! Man, your awesome! This forum is so helpful! I'll give it a try I think!

BTW, the scabbard that comes with that bayonet is not correct for any part of your time period, BUT I can explain how to modify it to make it more correct or give you other more historically accurate options as well.

You are most welcome.

Gus

 

[Mason Ponton]

BTW, the scabbard that comes with that bayonet is not correct for any part of your time period, BUT I can explain how to modify it to make it more correct or give you other more historically accurate options as well.

You are most welcome.

Gus

Oh, thanks for letting me know, that would be great! Both! I would like to slowly build up my kit to be as authentic and or accurate as possible! Thanks! My goodness! So excited!

 

[Artificer]

Oh, thanks for letting me know, that would be great! Both! I would like to slowly build up my kit to be as authentic and or accurate as possible! Thanks! My goodness! So excited!

OK, here's most of the basic kit issued with British Land Pattern Arms. (No bayonet scabbard, though.) As you look at the picture, to the right of the Cartouche (Cartridge) Box, is the issue bayonet FROG that remained unchanged from before the FIW to slightly after your period. This held the bayonet scabbard.

Below is an excellent reproduction made by Najecki, except he uses brass or copper rivets and burs instead of the original ones made of Iron.

Waistbelt Frog- for use with the above 1" waistbelt. This black leather frog with copper rivets is pictured in Don Troiani's Soldiers in America book, page 4. Four examples are known to me, including those at Fort Ligonier and Old Fort Niagara. The slot for the bayonet scabbard hook will be on the exterior of the frog (¾" from the top) unless you specify a different location such as the frog interior for an inward facing bayonet, or further down the frog. Overall dimensions: 3" wide by 7 ½" tall. $25.00

http://www.najecki.com/repro/pouches/BritishCartBox.html#waistbelt
That price is very, VERY difficult to meet, even if you did it yourself, BUT you MUST measure your bayonet with scabbard on it to get a proper fit AND you must add a bayonet Locket to your bayonet scabbard.

Now here is something I want to add that should be very important. Though these bayonet frogs were military issue with the Regular British Regiments, there is no documentation of which I am aware that they were commonly used by even a simple majority of American Militia. Some individual militia members may have had them and perhaps even some few militias made up of more wealthy civilians, but the expense of these and for most of the American Militia's, they really had no use for them outside of their drill meetings to go to that expense to procure them. A simpler version of these or even an over the shoulder strap and frog combination, may and probably were more common. I will get into those in my next post.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

I just received a 1740 light infantry fusil kit from the i rifle shoppe yesterday. Its in .62, 42: barrel with a banana shapped lock, similar to a 1742 long land in all aspects, furniture too. Its basically a mini 42.

There isn’t much history on these early fusils, other than the so called Lord Louden musket that was sent over in the French and Indian War, however the locks on those were more dutch and only single bridled with a straight lock.
Rifle shoppe owner Jess Melot stated that three of these showed up in his shop, one from Kit Ravensheer’s collection and another from Moller’s, both were identical except for a nose band on one and a casted cap on the other.

The rammer is hickory however is just a tiny bit larger than a steel rod making conversion to steel easily done with just a small spring in the breech area.

The lock is marked 1742 ‘Vaughan’, not the same as the 1760 fusil which had a straight lock plate.

going to start working on assembling the lock around December.

 

[nkbj]

Anyone know why .69 and larger bores were so often favored?

 

[Mason Ponton]

I just received a 1740 light infantry fusil kit from the i rifle shoppe yesterday. Its in .62, 42: barrel with a banana shapped lock, similar to a 1742 long land in all aspects, furniture too. Its basically a mini 42.

There isn’t much history on these early fusils, other than the so called Lord Louden musket that was sent over in the French and Indian War, however the locks on those were more dutch and only single bridled with a straight lock.
Rifle shoppe owner Jess Melot stated that three of these showed up in his shop, one from Kit Ravensheer’s collection and another from Moller’s, both were identical except for a nose band on one and a casted cap on the other.

The rammer is hickory however is just a tiny bit larger than a steel rod making conversion to steel easily done with just a small spring in the breech area.

The lock is marked 1742 ‘Vaughan’, not the same as the 1760 fusil which had a straight lock plate.

going to start working on assembling the lock around December.

Noice.

 

[Mason Ponton]

OK, here's most of the basic kit issued with British Land Pattern Arms. (No bayonet scabbard, though.) As you look at the picture, to the right of the Cartouche (Cartridge) Box, is the issue bayonet FROG that remained unchanged from before the FIW to slightly after your period. This held the bayonet scabbard.

View attachment 169319

Below is an excellent reproduction made by Najecki, except he uses brass or copper rivets and burs instead of the original ones made of Iron.

View attachment 169321
Waistbelt Frog- for use with the above 1" waistbelt. This black leather frog with copper rivets is pictured in Don Troiani's Soldiers in America book, page 4. Four examples are known to me, including those at Fort Ligonier and Old Fort Niagara. The slot for the bayonet scabbard hook will be on the exterior of the frog (¾" from the top) unless you specify a different location such as the frog interior for an inward facing bayonet, or further down the frog. Overall dimensions: 3" wide by 7 ½" tall. $25.00

http://www.najecki.com/repro/pouches/BritishCartBox.html#waistbelt
That price is very, VERY difficult to meet, even if you did it yourself, BUT you MUST measure your bayonet with scabbard on it to get a proper fit AND you must add a bayonet Locket to your bayonet scabbard.

Now here is something I want to add that should be very important. Though these bayonet frogs were military issue with the Regular British Regiments, there is no documentation of which I am aware that they were commonly used by even a simple majority of American Militia. Some individual militia members may have had them and perhaps even some few militias made up of more wealthy civilians, but the expense of these and for most of the American Militia's, they really had no use for them outside of their drill meetings to go to that expense to procure them. A simpler version of these or even an over the shoulder strap and frog combination, may and probably were more common. I will get into those in my next post.

Gus

What a guy! Thank you Gus! Can't wait for more!

 

[FlinterNick]

Anyone know why .69 and larger bores were so often favored?

A few reasons. The British used a .77 caliber bore to mitigate the issue of fouling. A .69 ball can be rammed down a .77 bore with a modestly cleaned or fouled out bore.

French Muskets were actually in ,72 up to 1777, contrary to the wide belief they were all in .69 which was the minimum caliber they could be. Same reasons as the British .77 bore. A .65 ball was used in a .72 bore, which is will fouls out sooner, however the french muskets had a slight range advantage.

Conformity was also a big issue, if most of your infantry weapons are .77 then your lower caliber weaponry ammo can be used. Rather than having a variety of calibers to supply ammo having conformity simplified supplying ammo.

The French actually had two version of each infantry arm. Was the infantry musket and it had a larger counter part called the amausette or rampart gun, however it was not like the traditional rampart guns we read about. These french amausettes were only around 7-8 lbs heavier than the infantry guns and calibers were up to .78 and .80. Many of these amausettes made it american regiments in the revolutionary war and were often issued as infantry arms with bayonets, as they were pretty much the equivalent of a long land 42 or 55. These larger muskets were made to conform with all models through 1754. The french used .69 caliber bores in all other arms, carbines and pistols from 1717-1754 (excluding some patterns like the 1730 pistol).

The Spanish and Dutch had similar procedures for military calibers.

 

[FlinterNick]

1740 Light Infantry Fusil kit.

Barrel is 42” in .62

Lock is just under 6 5//16.